#210: Case Study On Growing Your Book (Even As A Busy Mom)

Heather: Hello everybody. Welcome back to Life & Law. This is your host, Heather Moulder. And today we have another very special guest I want to introduce you to. A client actually, and a friend who is going to be sharing with you some of the things that she has been doing from a client development perspective, that’s a little outside of the box, but really, really simple.

And I wanted to bring her on kind of as a case study today because I’m hopeful that when we share these very specific types of scenarios, it gives you more ideas for the, the things you can be doing that are also really going to be effective, but also simple and not take up a billion hours of your time, which, of course, we don’t have. Right?

An Introduction to Andraya Brunau

So I want to introduce you to Andraya Brunau. Andraya chairs the IP litigation practice at Day Pitney and co-chairs the firm’s Women Working Together program. Her practice focuses primarily on intellectual property. Outside of work, she enjoys spending time with her husband, her two children, and her golden retriever. And she also loves running and skiing – it sounds like the running part is no joke because she recently completed her third half-marathon.

Welcome, Andraya.

[00:02:32] Andraya: Hi, Heather. Thanks for asking me to join you. Super excited. And yes, I think my legs have finally recovered from the race, which was last weekend. So the stairs are a little less scary for me now.

Heather: I don’t know how you do it. I’ve, I’ve always hated running. Like, running is just not my thing. And I’ve heard about this runner’s high thing and I’ve tried it and I’m like, no, this does not happen for me.

[00:02:57] Andraya: So it’s funny you say that because I think the first time I ever went for like a long run, more than like the mile test or half mile test you did in gym school was in seventh grade.

And I remember hearing like a family friend talk about, you know, it was just like, good for you and you could get clarity. And I was really liking skiing at that time. Like, that was the thing I did with my dad on weekends. And so they were, they were extolling the benefits, right, of it helps you build leg muscles and you’re gonna ski faster. So I thought I would try it. And it was back when the ipods first came out, like this is around, you know, 1999, 2000. And they were colored like the bright blue or the pink or the green with a little quick wheel, right? So I like suited up, I got that on, it was cold, it was November. I went out for a run and I hated it. And I don’t know, like, maybe it’s like my personality type, but I kind of was like, you know what, I’m not gonna let that stop me. I’m gonna try to stick with it for, you know, at least until Christmas. And it got easier. I don’t know what it is about like in college I went, you know, I hated public speaking. And I was like, you know what? I’m gonna join student government. I tried to like do a mindset shift that was, you know, like, let’s really give something a try. That seems hard. And if after like 30, 60 days I still hate it, then you know what? I know it’s not for me, so I don’t know, my five year old’s probably gonna hate that in a little bit.

[00:04:17] Heather: Well, actually, it’s kind of segway into what some of what we’re going to talk about today. But this whole, you got to try it and keep doing it and it gets easier and better and, and I do, I do know that can happen for people with running. Full disclosure to everybody. Part of my problem is I’ve always had an issue with my right knee and it hurts. And so that is probably a big piece of it. So I just decided, you know, there are other things I could do that. Don’t hurt my knee.

[00:04:46] Andraya: I totally get it. Getting back into running after having two kids, I. I had a lot of pain, but you know what? I. And I had a cold the day of the race, but I was like, you know what I put in the training, I might be slower than I wanted, but, like, we’re just gonna. We’re gonna do the damn thing, so that’s awesome.

Why Andraya Chose The Law (& Why IP Law)

[00:05:02] Heather: So, okay, so let’s get into. Before we get into the business development, I gave a little bit of an intro, but tell people, you know, what you do, how maybe a little background around what even made you want to be a lawyer, and then what made you do this kind of law. I always find it fascina.

Choose their specific industries.

Yeah.

[00:05:22] Andraya: So, I mean, I think growing up as a kid in the 90s, so many of us heard, well, you’re. You like history, you like reading, you like writing, you like arguing with your parents on occasion when you feel passionate. Like, you should consider law school. So it’s definitely a product of that. But growing up, my friend’s dad, his name’s Michael Blanchard, he’s an attorney in New London, Connecticut. He was a lawyer and someone I just kind of really looked up to. And I remember they had a Bring Your Kid to work day.

And he said, hey, I know you’ve said, maybe this is something you’re interested in. Do you want to come to work with me? And so I was probably 12 at the time, and I went to work with him. I went to his law firm. I walked around, I met everyone. We went to lunch was the first my Thai food. And then he had a court hearing, and he did divorce law and criminal defense work. So we went down in the holding cell of the state court and, like, met with his client who had murder charges against him. And I just remember thinking, how cool was this to kind of see what he did? And what really stuck out to me was just how he treated people. The way that he approached the marshal at the front door of the courthouse and his secretary and his colleagues was no different than the way he spoke to this individual who happened to be. He spoke Chinese or as a translator. Right. And he just treated them all equally and with respect.

And I was just really kind of in awe of, wow. If I kind of go to school, I like the writing, I like the reading, I like the advocating.

I could do something that really helps people. And so I kind of knew, you know, I wasn’t sure what type of law. When I went into law school, I thought maybe I Wanted to do something with public interest. I had done a lot of internships when I was at Providence College with, like, battered women’s shelters and the Fair Housing Center. And so I kind of felt like I want to do something to help people who maybe are struggling and need someone to stick up for them. And then once I got in law school, I kind of, you know, like, so many people, I really took the advice seriously during orientation of, like, just try everything. Like, you’re not going to know what you like until you try it. So I tried out family law. I tried out criminal law. I knew those weren’t for me, and I never thought I would have ended up at a firm. I was, like, going to be a DOJ honors girl, like, you know, doing those jobs where you could barely pay your student loans. And then I interned or I did a summer associate position at Dave Hitney, where I am now. And I just loved it. I loved the people. I loved the clients. I liked that you could walk down the hall and people were talking hypotheticals and laughing with each other and just, like, really collaborating in a team environment, which was not at all what I thought working at, like, the largest law firm in Connecticut was going to be like. So I was a little taken aback.

And then I thought, okay, maybe law firm. I just want to try out the public interesting a bit more. So I did UConn Law School had this really cool. You could spend a semester in D.C. so I was 40 hours a week at the Department of Justice and their Environmental enforcement section. So, like, Clean Air act litigation. I thought, you know, maybe I want to do the environmental work, because regardless of which side you’re on, you know, you’re. You’re all kind of maybe working for a purpose, helping companies comply or innovating new programs or if you work for the government, kind of moving the ball forward. And I hated it.

I loved the people at the DOJ because, like, the DOJ is the government’s largest law firm. It had, like, a very similar vibe. You know, people were biking and coming into work and doing group runs on the mall at lunch. And, like, I love that kind of team aspect of it as a team sports girl growing up.

But I just knew, like, that maybe it wasn’t for me. So I did a clerkship. I wound up back at Dave Pitney. And then I really. I tried. I knew I wanted to do litigation. I just tried everything, like, foreclosure matters, pro bono cases.

I worked for, like, 10 years on this wrongful death litigation involving a helicopter crash. Like, I just tried to soak everything up like a sponge. Not sure, you know, who I liked working with best. The types of clients was it individuals, was it companies? And then roundabout, my fifth or sixth year was I kind of scratched my head and thought maybe I should try to figure out what I really want to do. I hear like, you should have a niche, and maybe that’s something I should look for.

And I kind of just fell into IP by accident. Like, I didn’t take an IP class in law school. I was a math major in undergrad and history. I double majored. So I always kind of liked the challenge. And I. I really liked the, you know, the product liability cases, the Tor case of the wrongful death. I had to learn about technology, so it really wasn’t that much of a leap. But I started working on. It was an arbitration, a commercial dispute, a license agreement about two products. And there was kind of IP light issues, I call it, at play. And I just really fell in love with it. I loved the clients I like. It was kind of everything I liked about all the other types of litigation experts, chronologies, understanding technology.

And I just thought, you know what? This is something that I could see myself doing. It’s exciting. I like the people.

And that’s kind of what I wanted to go for. Like, you want to like what you do 75% of the time or greater. And so for me, I kind of pivoted to mostly focusing on IP cases almost by accident, which is not the path many take in ip. Many people, like, know they want to go into it, right? And yeah.

[00:10:50] Heather: You know, though, I think there are a couple of lessons to learn from your story.

Lesson 1: You Don’t Have To Know From the Outset

First off is you don’t necessarily have to know exactly what you want to do from the beginning. And even if you think you do or you do, you can change your mind over time.

I think a lot of times we are convinced to niche in very, very early, and sometimes we’re forced to, which is with the way that a lot of law firms are structured. And if, though you have the opportunity to do a variety of things, I actually recommend that your first three to five years because not only will it give you a broader set of skills and knowledge, but it will give you a better sense of where do I really shine and why and what. It’s easier than to make a choice and a real choice about what you really enjoy, which is necessary for fulfillment and happiness and what you do and. And your job and your life, too.

Lesson 2: Strategic Discovery

The other thing I would say is I think that you’re a perfect example of everything seems by chance, but I don’t think it is.

You actually were pretty strategic of, well, I want to, I want to see, I want to discover. I want. Like you were. You knew enough to know I don’t know what ultimately I want to do, and I could change my mind. And so there is a way to do it in a strategic manner. And it sounds like you’ve always been pretty strategic in that respect.

You’re nodding your head yes. Yes. I mean, most of us lawyers try to be. Right.

[00:12:28] Andraya: Yeah.

It’s funny.

Yeah. I think I’m very much like one of the core values I have is empathy. And I think people sometimes say, oh, empathy, what does that mean? You, like, see someone cry and you just caves, give them what you want. And I view it differently. I think of it more as just kind of listening. Like, if we can stop and pause and really look and see and listen, we kind of, we learn more, we get trust, we have better relationships, and we just can be more. Have more clarity about what we really want because we’ve kind of taken the time to pause, see what’s out there.

Do I want to then go see something different because I, I want more on my menu. Right. Or have I kind of seen enough to decide? I, you know, I don’t need to see anymore. I’ve seen enough. Here’s what I want to do. And I think that just applies to so many things like personal life, professional life, your relationships with people.

And so, yeah, kind of looking back on it, it makes a little bit more sense in it. You know, I guess I never felt like, that pinch that I hear kind of. I, I do a lot with our summer associates and recruiting. Right. And I do hear a push. I don’t know if it’s law school specific from career counselors or just the age we live in. And seeing so many people on social media just having that very narrow focus early on, and I kind of just say, yeah, blow up the playbook, you know, just, just try it all and, and something will click and you’ll know it. Yeah.

[00:13:56] Heather: And I would say, I mean, there’s no reason for you to need to choose that early. You can, you might choose poorly for you. Ultimately, I just think it’s.

It’s a mistake to go too narrow too early because you really don’t know.

And you need to experience the different types of practices to get there. The other thing I would say is for those of you who say, well, you know, I’m in a section, I’m in this big firm. I’m in this section or this group or this whatever it is.

You can strategically ask to do other work. It is allowed and noticed in a usually positive manner when you do. I did it.

Sounds like you did it.

I was a.

I was in the banking group initially and a lending lawyer, right? And that’s primarily what I did was lending. But I also then asked for M and A work.

There was a particular partner who did M and A work for banks. I asked to do that.

I helped some of the litigators out on random stuff that wasn’t really litigation, but it was like demand letters and different types of things because I wanted to see what is this litigation thing and how do they interact with people. And it very clearly told me, this is too much drive for you. It’ll cause stress, maybe you’ll be good at it, but you won’t like it.

I did a lot of work with the corporate people. I asked to help them on things. I asked the bankruptcy group to help with the bankruptcy DIP facilities and then other bankruptcy when things went into bankruptcy, when they needed help, like I did my first five years, very specifically asked to do work in different areas.

And many of my clients have done the same. And many of my current clients are trying to do more, like branch out more.

You are doing yourself a disservice. This is your career.

Be strategic about it. Learn. It will make you. Even if it ends up that the. The initial niche that you chose ends up being the perfect one for you, you will be a better lawyer for it. You will have better skills, you will have better knowledge, you will have more breadth, and it will help you in the long run. So that is the lesson I think people need to take away from this discussion so far.

Lesson 3: It’s Up To You To Create The Life You Want (Own It)

[00:16:08] Andraya: Yeah, I agree with that somewhat. Like, there’s a tired phrase, right, that gets circulated around, I think, in business and accounting firms and law firms too, right? They’re like, you are the captain of your own ship, right? And everyone will kind of like roll your eyes and think, oh, yeah, okay, that sounds nice. But I 100% agree. I think. I think the only time I’ve ever seen people run into trouble is when they kind of don’t ask, right? Because either then they don’t like what they end up doing and have this kind of feeling of. Of being lost, or they just kind of say yes to everything but don’t, like, check in with the people that they’re working with. And so I tell the people on my team the same thing, like, you know, so and so asked me to work on this commercial case. And I say, okay, well, like, let’s map out your workload for the next. Not just two weeks, but, like six weeks, six months. Do you have capacity to take this on? Like, let’s figure out a way for you to do both, because it seems like a good opportunity to work on it. So I think no one will ever. People will be very happy if you. You ask to get involved, and it’s a win for everyone, right?

[00:17:14] Heather: Correct. Correct. And as you noted, there are political ramifications. You have to navigate correctly, but there are ways to do it, and most people will be on board with that. So find a way and be strategic about it. Okay, let’s pivot a little bit into.

Why Work With A Business Development Coach?

So we are working together, and you. You came to me for business development.

Why don’t we, before we get into what you’ve been doing, talk a little bit about what made you even want to work with a coach for this? Because a lot of lawyers I talked to initially are like, they have this attitude of, well, I shouldn’t need the help. We are. Go solo, do it all on our own. Let’s prove it to everyone else kind of folks. I’ve been there. I’ve been that way and still have to counteract that sometimes. So did you ever. And not everybody does so. And everybody. I don’t know what our answer is going to be. So did you ever have those kind of thoughts? How did you get over it, and if. Or did you not? And why?

[00:18:18] Andraya: Yeah, so I think I reached out to you. I was maybe three or four months back from maternity leave with my second. So for those of you who don’t know. So I.

I’m a partner. I think this is technically my fifth year as a partner. I had. I kind of had my daughter, and I was a senior associate. It was the middle of COVID – wild times. I came back, I made income partner, and, you know, it takes a while to kind of figure out how the role is different.

It’s different in some ways it’s not right. And things kind of shift. And then I went out on maternity leave and came back and kind of looked at my desk and looked at what I was working on and thought, okay, I’ve got, like, a good steady stream here, but I could do more of this on my own. Right. And so I had already kind of taken the time to meet with, you know, the partners in my group that I work with and that I trust and say, okay, well, how did they do it? Right.

And then Speak with others, you know, outside of the litigation department, in our corporate department, and kind of hear their story. So I’d kind of done this roadshow of listening and thought, sure, there’s bits and pieces I could pull from all of them. And so I did that for a while.

Going Forward Faster (Being Strategic)

And then when I came back for my second, I said, you know what? I have two kids. I got less time. I got a full caseload. Like, I came back and immediately was, you know, had like, two 30B6 depositions. Like, I want to work with someone who can help me. Just say, of the 20 things I could do, like, let’s prioritize, you know, the five best. And so just like, if you’re preparing for an expert deposition of a doctor or an economist or a damages expert, you talk to your own expert to figure out, like, okay, there’s 20 ways I could go.

What’s going to be the most persuasive? Where do we have the best data points? And so I felt like, you know, law school doesn’t teach you about business.

Law firms do a lot to try to help their senior associates and new partners learn the business of law. But, like, let’s be honest, we got to those roles because we’re good at being lawyers, and many are also good at business. But those also tend to be the busiest people who maybe don’t always have time to kind of just sit down and, you know, give a course on it to everyone else. So I kind of knew working with someone else could kind of, you know, help me see things differently, give me new ideas, prioritize the ideas already had, and also just kind of hold me accountable. Right? Because it’s very easy when you have, you know, like, 180, 200 billable hours in a month to just say, I’ll do that later. I’ll do that later. And then three months could go by, right? And so I knew it was something for me that kind of the timing was right, that I wanted to focus on it now so that five years from now, like, future me is happy.

Why Law Firm Trainings Aren’t (Usually) Enough

[00:20:52] Heather: Okay. So something in there that I think people need to realize, and this is somewhat for the leadership of law firms to understand.

There’s a lot of training out there, but a lot of law firms have. And it’s not that it’s bad per se, but primarily, what. What I see and the other coaches I know who do this work see is it’s just a laundry list of all the things you can do or a list of things you quote, unquote, should do based on what the top rainmaker giving that presentation or who helped with it, or the top couple of top rainmakers have been doing.

So what I find in a lot of situations is when people come to me, often they’ve been like, you kind of said, I did a little bit of this and I did a little, you know, you look at what other people are doing and we mirror.

But what other people are doing and the way they’re doing it is not necessarily your best way.

And what rainmakers do so well is they figure out very quickly, sometimes intuitively, sometimes because they got help too.

What’s the best way for me right now, given my personality, given my strengths and weaknesses, given the time constraints I have, there are a lot of things I could do. What’s the best place for me to focus my attention, where and how.

And ultimately, that’s what I help my clients figure out and then help, as you said, keep them accountable with. And I think that’s where a lot of these law firm trainings, quote, unquote, mess up. It’s their presentations about all the things, but there’s. Each individual needs help a lot of times figuring out, okay, based on all the things, what is it I should be doing?

Have A Peer Group

[00:22:33] Andraya: I. I agree with that. I’ve long been an advocate. So there’s like so many personality tests and like, there’s sales profile assessment test. Like all these things kind of bubble out there.

And I remember one of my first partner retreats, we did one variation of those, and whatever profile we got, there was maybe six profiles, large groups. And all of the groups except for the one I was in had like multiple tables. And the one I was in, I sat down and I looked around and thought, well, this makes sense. These are people, my partners, that I gel with. And we nicknamed ourselves the Ball Busting Unicorns. Because, you know, there were some people who. Their primary strength was, you know, the more academic, like the teaching, the. The CLE presentations. And that really got them excited about it. And then there were some who, you know, oh, we’ll meet my partner, Joe. Like, that was how their selling style was. And then there were some people who at our table were just like, we just like talking to people. We like meeting new people. We’ll walk into a event and, hi, hurry, what are you doing?

Find something in common to talk to them about. And I think there are about six of us. And so it’s kind of become like an inside joke. And I think I actually put it on my LinkedIn because I think just like being self aware, knowing who you are what you enjoy doing, because if you don’t enjoy doing it, you’re not going to do it. And so if you’re just picking from that smorgasbord of 10 things you should be doing and it’s not specific to what you like, like, it’s easy to think that you don’t like it, that you’re not good at it, that you can’t do it. And if you feel those feelings, you put it off. Because why are you going to want to do something you don’t like and that you feel like you’re not good at? Like, lawyers run from that type of thing.

Service Partner vs. Rainmaker (What’s the Real Difference?)

[00:24:11] Heather: Everybody does, really. But especially. And it’s so easy to run from it when you have all the billables like you could be doing for other people. But the problem is, once you become a partner, I cannot express that. Like, if you go in and say, I just want to be a service partner, fine. Just make sure you understand the risk, because there’s real risk with it. And it may not seem like one, but eventually there is. Every service partner I’ve ever known who has remained a service partner for many like 15, 20 years has at some point found themselves without any work.

And then they don’t know what to do because they’ve never. And it is the most stressful, anxiety inducing time for them. And I will tell you, law firms are not real nice to service partners who suddenly have zero work, in my experience.

So if that works for you, great. Understand the risk, understand, have a game plan for if and when that happens.

Save really well based on the money you get so that you’re ready and can pivot if you need to. Most of those people that I know pivot outside of the law firm environment when that happens.

And again, totally fine if it’s a choice made proactively understanding the risks, the way out of that and in that situation is to learn how to develop your own book and at least have that behind you. Because even, yes, there are ups and downs and yes, things can crash and you may not have much business, but if you’ve proven that you can and you’ve had it before, you usually have a little more leeway in which to get back.

So that is just something I want to make sure people really understand.

[00:25:51] Andraya: Yeah, I think it’s something that doesn’t. It definitely doesn’t get talked about in law school, it doesn’t get talked about in orientation. I think the people who know that and hear that, it’s either because they’ve lived it and experienced it firsthand, or have seen someone close to them kind of experience that or have kind of that trusted, not just mentor, but sponsor who sits down and has that serious conversation with them. Right. About their future.

And I think, you know, for me it’s like at the end of the day, like you are responsible for yourself. Right. And so kind of what you just said, like, if you don’t want to be relying on the, you know, your partners who, right, wrong or indifferent, could go somewhere else, could get sick, could, you know, there could be in some change in the environment that makes things go away. Like you want to just know that you’re kind of giving it your all and just learning those skills. Because it’s also like a memory, memory muscle game. Right? Like muscle memory. So if you kind of do the skill, you’ll. It’ll get easier and you’ll get better. And if you don’t and then all of a sudden you need to. It’s a lot more scary.

[00:26:57] Heather: Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to say to everybody out there listening, anybody can build their own book of business. I don’t care what your practice area is, your personality, whether you’re introverted or extroverted. For all the introverts out there, most lawyers are actually more introverted.

There are many, many, many successful people who are rainmakers, who are introverted. You don’t have to be the gregarious person. And it’s just everywhere you, you can do it. It’s just a matter of why am I really wanting to do this, am I willing to do this? And then figuring out what will work for you.

Andraya’s Case Study

One of the things I’ve talked about a lot is learn how to cross-sell, learn how to learn how to collaborate. You’re going to be a lot better off and be in a firm that really values that. By the way, not all firms do. They really should, but they don’t all. And so if you’re in a firm like that, perhaps it’s a sign you need a shift and that’s okay. But most firms really like that, like the collaborative people like for you to cross sell.

And you came up with an interesting way to do this. So why don’t you tell your story about what you thought, about how you figured it out, what you did.

Yeah.

[00:28:05] Andraya: So. And by way of background, so what I primarily do is intellectual property litigation.

So like trademark and copyright fights in federal court. But I also do a lot of what’s called enforcement work. So the pre litigation cease and desist letters, helping in house legal teams or Companies navigate receiving a letter, sending a letter, working with the vendors they work with to police the Internet, which in this day and age with TikTok x Instagram, you know, shop app, right, it’s, it’s prolific, it’s whack a mole for them. So coming up with theories and strategies to kind of what do they do themselves, what do they outsource, who do they outsource it to? And some of that yes, leads to litigation, but some of it is just kind of like good client service relationships, like how can we make this manageable?

Step 1: Identify a Legal/Business Issue

And so one of the things came, it came out of a conversation that we had, Heather was kind of what is the environment we were living in? And it was kind of earlier in the summer when tariffs were very much in the media, getting attention. How is that impacting the work that I do for the commercial lawyers?

I think they were seeing some sectors’ spend for litigation being cut. How much are the tariffs going to impact our business? And for IP it was actually kind of the opposite is what I was seeing, that it was presenting a positive opportunity for some companies who were based in the US but had manufacturing outside of the US or were based in the US and manufacturing here, but had known infringers, copiers outside of the US trying to get goods in.

And so there was kind of this like underutilized tool that some companies were using and others weren’t, where if you have a trademark or a copyright, you can register it with customs. And so I started looking at the data and thinking, well, regardless of how you feel about the administration, there’s one agency that’s getting a lot more rent money right now and that’s customs.

And there’s more people at our ports and there’s more containers coming in and people looking at those containers. And so here’s kind of a positive thing that is low hanging fruit. You know, the, the team doesn’t have to go like GC level or higher to put one of these programs in place. And it’s something that not a lot of people know about because customs work is kind of this like very niche subset of IP work. And there’s some boutiques out there that kind of like really focus on that and the International Trade Commission work.

But it’s not, you know, if you go to kind of your average IP lawyer, they might not be doing a lot of it. And so we were doing it for some clients and thought this is something that other companies might just be interested in, small or large, as a way to kind of just stop the goods before they hit those online commerce platforms. So I kind of tried to write it with a tone of, you know, maybe some in-house legal department lawyers would read it. But you know, anyone could pick it up and read it and understand it. And it was really kind of more of a this is something we can help you with and do. And this is why you should care about it from your business. Because if you’re not doing something, you’re just leaving low-hanging fruit on the table that could really help your company’s bottom line at a time when they’re otherwise being squeezed, squeezed.

Step 2: Write About An Opportunity, the Business Ramifications & the Legal Reasoning/How-To

[00:31:14] Heather: So let me hold on for a second. So you wrote almost like a bulletin or a memo not to a specific person or client, but the way a lot of law firms do this is they have these bulletins of, you know, but we tend to do it just FYI for new law in place or new enforcement way or new which doesn’t have a lot of info in it other than this is, this could be horrible call us kind of a vibe.

Whereas you took a very different approach. It’s well wait, here’s an issue.

Here are the problems we’re seeing but here’s how you can take advantage.

I’m going to talk about that with real information, real value provided. Some information around how they can take advantage.

But they might need, they would probably need some legal help if they should choose to. So then of course you would be the natural segue. So that’s really what this was about, correct?

[00:32:08] Andraya: Yeah, it was kind of like a piece. Right. You’re, you’re sitting around, you’re a in house business person or attorney, you have this problem and someone’s saying, well what are we going to do about it? Right. It kind of gives you the facts and the data to say this is something we could consider. Here’s some statistics about why it could work and then the legal justification for doing it. Right. Kind of. And it provides a little bit of a how to about how you would go about doing it because there are some very sophisticated in house apartments that do handle this stuff themselves. Right. And there are others who maybe have a smaller legal department and need to hire outside help. But it was really more coming at it from that business perspective of when you’re all sitting around brainstorming trying to figure out how to stop the bleeding. Is, is there a way to kind of take advantage of the current climate that could help us if tariffs change six months from now? Right, right. So you’re dealing with a practical solution.

[00:32:57] Heather: Yeah. So a couple things. Number one, you’re looking at it from the business perspective, which is where all clients are really coming from. Not the legal. Okay, here’s the environment. Here’s the business perspective. Here’s how the legal crosses with that. Here is something you can do that would be helpful to many of you and that it’s. So you’re giving real value. It’s not some bulletin that we typically see. It’s a real, almost little memorandum of value that you decided to go ahead and just write not for a one. And you knew already. Okay, there’s a couple clients I know I can send this to you, which, of course you did.

That a lot of people will do. Oh, I did this thing. I’m going to send it to my. My contacts. You went above and beyond.

So tell us what you did next.

Step 3: Get Your Piece Placed (Somewhere that Makes Sense)

[00:33:41] Andraya: Yeah, so I talked to our communications group and we placed it in Law360, which is behind a paywall. And at the time, I kind of thought, well, it doesn’t really matter. I got a PDF of it. That’s all I really care about. It’s. It’s in one nice little glossy folio.

Step 4: Send to Your Clients + Contacts

Yeah, I had a couple of contacts in mind who I thought might be interested either because they were already doing it. And so it gave them a nice thing to go to their boss and say, hey, we spent money on this thing. Here’s how it’s working for us. And it’s working for other people, too. Like, that was kind of a nice plug to help them in their KPIs or whatever. They have to report up internally for their quarterly reviews.

Step 5: Send To Attorneys In Your Firm With Clients Who Could Benefit

And then the other idea was, okay, here’s some clients where, you know, these are public registrations. You can see if they have it or not. Hey, I see you had these in the past. You don’t now. Like, is there a reason?

Or I saw, you know, some clients maybe had one or two, but there were potentially more they could register. And I wanted to know. And I just kind of started a dialogue, like, you have some, but not a lot. Are they working for you? Are you seeing the results? We’re seeing these kind of results for others. Let us know if you want to talk about it. And then there was kind of a third group of, like, untapped potential. So through our.

Through some kind of just talking tours, I guess I kind of went to attorneys in groups outside of litigation, corporate groups, and individual clients and just said, hey, here’s this. Business issues. Do you have any companies and clients that you’re working with that you think just might be interested in hearing about it and we kind of figured out on a one on one basis the best way to get it to them. Whether it was an invite to a lunch to meet the person in person and just kind of see did we have any, anything in common or, or they forwarded the article with me, copied and just kind of made an introduction. And sometimes there was a description that they already knew that was specific to their client. And then for those who I maybe were partners I didn’t know as well, I just pre wrote it. So like I didn’t just say hey, last all, you know, partners in my firm, like send this onto your contacts. I was strategic about kind of who I went to. I knew they maybe had a client in consumer goods or an aligned industry.

And then I just said and if you’re not feeling confident that hey, I know Larry’s going to care about this because he told me this at golf last week. Here’s like a pre written email that you could either take and plug and play or tweak as needed. So I tried to make it a specific ask who I wanted them to send it to, why I wanted to send it to them and then pain free as possible, right? So like they’re not spending a 0.4 on non billable stuff. It’s like literally 2 minutes, copy, paste, send it out.

[00:36:24] Heather: So okay, so I’m going to step back again and just make sure everybody understands so in it. So you, you sent it to your clients, you sent it to prospects who you thought may or may not be able to use it. But then you went to marketing, you did research with marketing to figure out who in this firm, like what are the companies within this firm that this might matter and then figure out who the attorneys are that are responsible originators. I don’t know what you guys call them there, but what you know, the responsible attorneys that have the client relations. Then you reached out to them to let them know and you were very specific in, you know, here’s what I know, here’s why this could matter, here’s the actual article and you went above and beyond and wrote here’s a email basically that you can send them if you want to just cut and paste it or send your own thing. So you did all the upfront work for them.

Yes, It’s A Time Commitment (But That Can Be Leveraged In Many Ways)

[00:37:14] Andraya: Yeah, it probably all in, I’m not gonna lie, probably took me 30 hours. But I felt like if I had spent you know, 20 hours writing an article, what’s another 30 hours making sure that you kind of juice it for all, all that it’s worth. Right. Because who’s gonna click on your bio and read a byline? Maybe somebody who finds you in an Internet search. But I felt strongly that there was good value and business advice in there and that in order to kind of get it into the hands of people, it that was, that was the way to go. I probably had a 90, 95% response rate both in terms of the outreach I did to my partners or colleagues internally and externally. Right. And you know, some people, it wasn’t immediate, it was a week or two or a month later. But you know, most people said, wow, this is cool. Oh heck, you know, I had one person say, hey, we were just talking about if that’s something that we should revive. And so can you join a meeting with me and my paralegal next week to talk about this?

And so it kind of did what I wanted, which was get a conversation started either with, you know, current clients to make sure I really understand their business problems and potential solutions.

It got conversations started with maybe people I had done work for in the past but hadn’t worked with recently, whether because I had gone and come back from leave or just hadn’t connected with them in a while. So that was nice. It gave me an excuse to reach out to people that I knew but wasn’t yet working with in that capacity in ip and like a fourth group of just, you know, people that are current clients that I wanted to find a way to kind of reach out to them and get to meet them in a non threatening way. Yeah, it kind of gave you a nice opening.

Cross-Selling & Cross-Collaboration Is Important (If In A Big Firm)

[00:39:04] Heather: I think that it’s important for people to understand that it is. So if you’re in a firm that has people in different offices, different practice areas, it is really easy to assume, oh, they know to call me, oh, they know who I am and they really don’t because if it’s not within their purview. Right, they don’t. And so to find easy ways to get in front of more people internally is huge because then you will become their go to for those things that they know you now do.

And the other thing is, it’s always amazing to me how much potential business could be there that a lot of people who have clients already in business don’t think about because they think mostly in the realm of, well, this is what we do, this is my area, not oh, all these other things.

And so this was a great way for you to get in front of more people, get to know more internally, and then also get to know new, new clients for you that are already clients of the firm to potentially expand the business that the firm does because you’ve done this work for these other people, the internally. Even if there isn’t a lot of work that comes from this particular thing, you’re going to become the person they think of when something does come up in your area. They’re going to know you’re there. They know exactly what you do.

And you’re the go to because you’re the person who reached out to them that did all this.

So it’s, it’s brilliant in my mind.

[00:40:40] Andraya: Yeah. I think the last piece. Right. Is just a lot of untapped potential.

We, I think we can get a little comfortable that, oh, well, they, they know who I am.

[00:40:51] Heather: Right.

[00:40:51] Andraya: But there’s all that data out there about the number of touches to convert a new relationship to a client relationship. And I think, I think that holds true for internal relationships as well, which is in my view, like the most untapped source. Because if you’re kind of focused on, well, I do, you know, this specific type of deal work for this particular client, you’re really doing yourself a disservice by not knowing what your partners also do. Because guess what, if then it’s a different type of deal work or a totally different type of litigation or an IP needs.

[00:41:24] Heather: Right.

[00:41:24] Andraya: And I handle the contested matters, but we have a whole team that handles kind of the portfolio. Portfolio management and what to register and how to register. If you’re not kind of taking the time to do the listening tour and getting front of mine, like, you’re selling yourself short. Because if those other matters come in for that client, guess what? You get to be involved in that process too. And so your pie grows. And so I, you know, have tried to really team up with people where we have the abundance, team mentality.

And so, you know, just like if someone came to me and said, hey, you have this contact and, and maybe they need this particular type of regulatory help. Right. I want to make the introduction and stay involved to make sure that A, I understand the issue that a client I work with is, is facing because that makes me better. I learned something new. But B, I get to see how one of my partners works and then toot their own horn even more by, like, seeing how great of a job they do on something.

And then three, like, we just get to kind of build the relationship. Because, you know, if you’re, if times are tough and you’re looking at your outside counsel and the person inside is saying, oh, well, I like you know, Jane Smith. And everyone around the table says, well, I don’t know Jane Smith. Like it’s a lot easier to cut Jane Smith than if you have four other colleagues say, oh, and I know Jane Smith and she did this for me. Oh well, Jane Smith put me in touch with this person who helped Bobby down the hall deal with this. Right. Like the more points of contact you have.

[00:42:51] Heather: Yep.

[00:42:52] Andraya: It’s just better client service. And it also, like from a, you know, longevity standpoint, it just makes sense.

What Have Been The Results (So Far)?

[00:42:59] Heather: It does just make sense. So what are you seeing now as a result of all that work that you put in?

[00:43:05] Andraya: Yeah, so ironically, I would say I don’t think anyone’s actually taken me up on the specific thing that I wrote about in the article, which was, you know, taking a copyright or trademark and recording it with customs. But I’ve kind of, I’ve gotten some other work out of it that I, I wouldn’t have. Right. Either because you were front of mind or you kind of re engaged in the relationship. So there’s been some pitch opportunities that came out of it that are still in process.

There was a pitch opportunity that we won for completely totally like unrelated work, but they had, I had kind of re engaged with them. Through this article we’ve gotten to just do like some lunch and learns and learn about kind of things clients are facing and be part of that in house brainstorming process. So that’s been super cool and you know, I’m confident that’s going to lead to opportunities. As you know, we kind of put rubber to road and they get to the end of the quarter and figure out budgets for the rest of the year. So it’s been a really great experience to just kind of have something tangible and sure, that’s fun to talk about.

[00:44:11] Heather: And I want to reiterate what you like. This is not uncommon when you do something like this, where you don’t actually get that work.

But it raises questions, and it also brings you front of mind again, and it gives you new relationships that wouldn’t have otherwise been there. So it is pretty common to do something like this, send it out, think you’re going to get work in that area and then not have any work on that one thing you wrote about or talked about. Yet you are going to get other work that you wouldn’t have gotten but for having done this. So it’s not a failure, it’s huge success because work’s coming in now that wouldn’t have come in otherwise. It’s just not the kind of work you wrote about, which is fine.

[00:44:54] Andraya: Yeah. And in, in one instance, it wasn’t even work that I did. Right. It was work that like a whole other department did. But it kind of was a good talking point of, oh, yes, let’s chat about it. It’s been great. And you know, the other thing, you know, our marketing team obviously like put it on the bio and it’s on my LinkedIn page and stuff like that. But I kind of also reached out to people and said, hey, if you read this, would you mind commenting on LinkedIn? And not just like a thumbs up, but if, if there’s something about it that stood out to you. Right. Because that, if you’re gonna kind of go that extra mile, just like having a congratulations I received X, like there are so many of those that you’re not really gonna stand out.

[00:45:37] Heather: That’s right. Yeah.

[00:45:39] Andraya: And so I had a couple people engage and then I just figured, you know what, the personal touch, the picking up the phone, the kind of talking with my partners was the better route for me for this particular piece.

[00:45:51] Heather: And I would agree with that. I think at the end of the day, the best way to build your book is through one-to-one networking. And one-to-one doesn’t always have to be in person, by the way. It can be on the phone, it can be on a Zoom call or, you know, whatever.

It doesn’t always have to be in person, but it needs to be more personal because we need to build relationships and that’s frankly how you build trust and that’s frankly how people get a better sense of who you are and what you do and what your style is and whether they like it and would want to work with you.

So do not shy away from that. That is networking is the number one thing you must do to grow your book.

It is also great to do some of this other stuff, like presenting or writing occasionally or being on LinkedIn. It, it helps you further it more. But networking’s never going to go away. And frankly, you can build your book primarily through networking. I think it happens a little faster when you do a networking and a little bit of other stuff, but you’re not out there writing a million articles and always like on LinkedIn real prolifically. Correct, right?

[00:47:00] Andraya: Yeah, I, like I said, I kind of was. I just completed my first year right back from maternity leave and it was, you know, it was a good re entry. I have like a very supportive team of partners and, and colleagues.

But it’s tough that first year back, like you got sick Kids a lot. You’re kind of readjusting, there’s not a lot of sleep. And so I figured, you know, I, I’m not going to get the reps in volume wise. So like, let’s pick something that is chewable, substantive wise and is more business than, you know, law review style, because that’s what time allotted for right now. And next year it may be different. Right. And kind of working with you to think about, you know, what that was like a great first six months. Like now we’re in the next six months. Like, let’s shift and see what makes sense. At that point. It’s not going to be the same.

Just like your life isn’t the same, it’s going to kind of shift.

What Do You Choose To Learn From Her Example?

[00:47:55] Heather: That is an important point to make. I think the lesson to be learned here is how can you, the listener, if you’re trying to build your book or getting more into business development, just identify one, two or three simple things and you don’t have to do them all. Right? You identify the top three simple things that might give you the biggest bang for the buck that will also help you with your networking. So what I think was so beautiful about what you did, Andrea, is you identified an issue that made sense given the current times. You seized on it immediately, you did the thing quickly and then you went the extra mile, not just to get it published, but to get it out there in front of as many people as possible, but in a way where you networked one on one with people to do it. And that was the key, I think, to the success that you had was the networking piece, the internal networking and the external networking piece.

And it started real conversations. So you can’t get away from the networking piece, y’.

[00:48:54] Andraya: All.

Yeah, so it’s funny you say that. So, you know, kind of when I came back, I thought, well, all those, you know, we call them rubber chicken, rubber chicken dinners. I don’t know if other people call them that. Right. But like the large networking events, like I don’t dislike those events. I always go and meet interesting people. But I just knew kind of with, you know, a six month old and a almost five year old, like that was gonna take a lot more planning. So I could do some of that, but I had to do something else and doing nothing wasn’t an option that I thought was good for me in my long term plan.

So that, you know, was part of why I hired you. And so another thing I did that’s kind of low hanging fruit is so say you can’t Write.

Networking Tip: Be Specific About Your Ask

I’m just too busy with bubble work. Like I can’t write the long article or I can’t commit to, you know, drafting a whole bunch of LinkedIn posts to post consistently. Like, you could still be active other ways. Um, and so one of the things is, you know, I learned was just have something specific in mind and a specific ask. So email your colleagues or former colleagues who are now in house that you want to connect with and have a specific ask. Right. Can we meet for lunch or coffee on this date? Maybe that’s the simple ask. Or hey, can we talk about. Because I see through our CRM tool that you have contacts at these places. Like, let’s talk about if there’s a way to grow that.

Because if you reach out to someone with a very specific ask, it’s much harder for them to say no. They know what you’re asking upfront, what the time commitment is and if they’re willing to help or not. If you just kind of send like this flowery let’s get together email, like those are the ones that I feel like get ignored. So yes, if you have limited time, be strategic, be specific. And on LinkedIn, what I just started doing was like at night, you know, I would be.

And maybe it’s tmi, like nursing my son, waiting for him to fall asleep and kind of like rocking him in the chair. And you know, you scroll on your phone. So I tried to make it a productive scroll. So I kind of started getting a curated LinkedIn feed where because of my role in women working together, our women’s group focused on kind of like women of all ages and all career paths, like professional development and programming. I started getting a lot of that similar content in my feed. So stuff about mom, stuff about parents, you know, not just in legal, across industries. And I thought, well, if I can’t write my own post, I can at least comment and engage with others.

And I think at some point that probably how I crossed paths and your name ended up on my screen and others names and I just thought, you know, this is a good way to engage with people, to be visible, to comment on other people and like say I love what you wrote and here’s my perspective and, and kind of find a community of people online and just, you know, toss out a hey, this really stood out to me. I liked that you were passionate about that. Like let’s grab coffee for 15 minutes on Zoom.

And I said that to one of my colleagues and they were like, oh my God, you sent that to a complete Stranger. Like, what did they say? I was like, most people say yes because it’s. Most people do and if it’s weird, you just hang up and you don’t have to talk to them again. But I met some really cool people that way. And so for me, kind of looking at it with the limited time, what’s doable? Like that was doable. Like make that the late night scroll for 15 minutes I think was all I took.

[00:52:16] Heather: So I love that you mentioned that because by the time this airs, it’ll be just over a month old. I have a whole podcast on LinkedIn networking and how to utilize it. So for those of you who say I just don’t have time for the in person, which you need to make a little time for that. FYI, there is also this whole thing called LinkedIn that isn’t just a social media platform, isn’t just a place for posting. It is very well built for networking and people are there to network. Like that’s the reason they’re there. So they’re a lot more open if you’re commenting on their things for real for you to then DM and reach out to them and ask for that coffee chat. I do it all the time. I don’t do it all year long because I don’t have time, but there’s certain times of year where I try to do that with people.

And by the way, it’s how I’ve gotten a large portion of the guests I’ve had on this show the last three years. I’ve also gotten clients from that. And that’s not the intent, but it’s where it can lead. And I know a lot of my clients utilize these strategies and they get clients from it too, over time.

[00:53:16] Andraya: I think part of it is once you start doing and commenting, more people just jump on your feed. Right. That’s how it work.

[00:53:24] Heather: They start to notice you, they looked at your profile, they see who you are, they follow you and they start following what you’re doing and saying.

And it’s a really effective way to network. That doesn’t take so much time.

So, okay, any last things that you’d like to, you know, suggestions, advice that you would give somebody out there who is kind of getting started into their. Maybe they’re a young partner or they’re just before that cusp of making partner and they know they need to start doing more to build their own book. What would you say to them?

[00:53:59] Andraya: I would say don’t wait. Don’t wait for permission, don’t wait for someone to tell you, hey, it’s time for you to start doing that thing now.

Start doing it as soon as you see the podcast episode, come across your feed or listen to it.

And the way that you kind of get started is going to depend. You know, are you a mid level associate, a senior associate. But I think the common thread through all of it is relationships. You know, your internal relationships are going to help you cross sell or potentially be clients because not everyone stays at the firm you’re at or other firms, you know.

So put the time into those relationships and you know, it’s not. You don’t have to do an hour every month with the same people. Don’t make it burdensome, but find the people that you share something in common with and you know, it doesn’t always have to be one on one like you. You can introduce them to each other, find something that works, but you know, keep the relationships at the core and then find, you know, one other thing. And the one other thing could change.

It could be if you’re industry, maybe there’s a committee for an industry group and for your industry, like people have said, like that’s really how I got a lot of business that works for me. Try it out, see if you like it, see if you like the people or try, you know, LinkedIn posting or articles like it doesn’t matter what the thing is. But like don’t try to do five other things. Pick one and do it for 30 days, 60 days, 90 days and see how it feels.

Make sure it’s a good fit for you, that you like doing it. And if you’re not sure that you do, then go to the next thing. But don’t try to do those five other things all at once is my, my best advice.

[00:55:46] Heather: I absolutely agree with that. Or you will get burned out.

Thank you so much for this conversation. I know everybody’s going to get a lot out of it. I really appreciate that you were willing to come on and spend your day or your time today here with me. I know it’s not easy.

And if tell people where they can find you if they want to look you up like on LinkedIn.

[00:56:08] Andraya: Sure I am. Andrea Palaski Bruno on LinkedIn. Find me there. And then at day Pitney. I’m also co chair of WWT and we have our biannual retreat coming up, so. So there may be some fun content coming out of that that will be going your way on LinkedIn soon too.

[00:56:26] Heather: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:56:28] Andraya: Thank you.