#178: Lawyers, You Need More Client Feedback

Heather: ​Well, hello everybody. Welcome back to the Life & Law Podcast. Today I want to introduce you to Blake Grewall, the founder of Bold Growth – a tech and creative studio that specializes in customer experience for service based businesses, including law firms. With a passion for solving big problems, Blake has made it his mission to help businesses create more raving fans. One of the ways he helps businesses do this is through client feedback, which is what we are going to be talking about today, specifically the art and science of client feedback. Welcome Blake.

[00:01:42] Blake: Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:44] Heather: So give me a quick rundown of what specifically you do and how you got to where you are just so that people will know your background.

[00:01:54] Blake: I’ll start with how I got here. I actually grew up in a family where my dad is a lawyer. So I’ve been around small law firms my entire life. As I got into the business and professional world, I spent time in the tech space as well as service based business world.

Ultimately what I noticed in the time where I saw more failures and successes, because these were all smaller businesses, I noticed that the businesses that were doing well, the ones that were happier and healthier, tended to have the best customer experiences. They were ones that weren’t guessing at growth and weren’t just dumping money into marketing, for example, and hoping for new leads the next month. They were having a very consistent growth trajectory.

I realized too in time that I just really had a knack for creating better experiences and looking at products and businesses and helping just create the best client experience possible and have that drive referrals, reviews, and testimonials for businesses.

Build Better Client Experiences Through Client Feedback

So at Bold Growth, very simply what we do is we put our clients through a six week sprint that helps them build better client experiences through gathering data and customer feedback and actually helping them understand that data. And then the second part of the sprint goes into actually mapping out their entire client journey. So we’ll go from start to finish how clients are interacting with their brand and look at where we can improve with either just processes or actual technology. I find that especially with small law firms, the tech is not client centric and it can be a little clunky.

And I see you laughing, so you may agree it can be a little clunky and it can put data all over the place, especially as they try to duct tape different tools together to run their practice. So it’s been an interesting space to just continue growing in.
[00:03:51] Heather: It’s funny, I was laughing because I have a client who started his own law firm and was really irritated by the tech available for billing and intake and all these things. So he built his own because he’s a techie kind of a guy. He’s also more of a tech lawyer.

We had a call a little while back when he first got started and he was like, “I spent the last four weeks doing this. And yes, it took a while, but it was so worth it because now it works perfectly for my business, my clients, what I need.” So yes, the tech out there, and I have a lot of clients who, especially the smaller law firms and the solo lawyers, they’re just tech’s not made for them. So it is difficult.

[00:04:38] Blake: I’ve seen a trend in the legal tech space, specifically where a lot of the platforms are moving upstream. And I don’t blame them. It’s business. But that still leaves the smaller law firms behind, thinking, “Okay, where do I go now?” So absolutely an interesting time, to say the least.

[00:05:00] Heather: It is an interesting time. So you call getting customer feedback both an art and a science. And I could hear in just your explanation of what you did, a lot of the science. Can you break down what you mean by art and then science and kind of where the different mechanisms come into play for both?

Why Getting Client Feedback Is Both An Art & Science

[00:05:17] Blake: I’m sure everyone that’s going to listen to this has gotten asked for feedback from products they buy, services they use. I would guess that the majority ignore those feedback requests or if they fill them out, it’s not honest.

The Art of Client Feedback

So when I say art and science, on the art side, when we’re looking at that client journey map, we’re trying to find the best times where clients are interacting with your business to ask for feedback. So we do different types of feedback. I’ll talk about two simple ones here:

• Customer satisfaction, which is a real time interaction with your business, asking them how that went.
• And then a net promoter score would be how likely they are to actually refer your business.

How The Art Feeds Into the Science of Client Feedback

The science behind that – a net promoter score, you want to ask that after a certain milestone has been completed or at the end of the engagement. Customer satisfaction can be asked during certain points, phone call intake, etc.

Combining the Art & Science

So I like to combine the art and science aspect of it. And I’m more of a creative. So when I’m looking at the client journey map, I like to really look at how that client is going to feel when they get this survey form because most are boring. And trying to best optimize those for responses and make them more personalized and engaging. And then the science aspect of it is taking that data and actually making sense of what’s going on.

Why Getting Client Feedback Is Crucial To Your Business

[00:06:43] Heather: And why would lawyers get feedback? I mean a lot of lawyers out there, and frankly, this will depend on their business. If it’s the type of lawyer who has a one off client for a specific type of matter and then they’re never going to see them again, that’s very different than somebody who represents a company corporation and is going to have ongoing relationships with them over a long period of time.

And I could see both sides saying, well, what’s the point? The guy, the person with the one off is like, “Well, they’re never coming back to me anyway. It doesn’t matter.” You’ve already kind of gotten to that. But I want you to speak to that a little bit more. And then the attorney who represents somebody over a long course of time is like, “Well, I should know this already because I’m representing them all the time and I’m talking to them all the time.” Why would I go and proactively get feedback from them in this way?

[00:07:37] Blake: I think there’s a few things that come to mind there.

#1: Understand How You’re Really Doing

One, getting feedback is going to help you understand how your service is doing, first of all. So structuring your messaging, maybe there are certain things that clients value about your service that you had no idea that they actually value. I’ve seen this with accountants that we work with, for example, where they’re just focused on filing the tax return or doing the consulting project that they’re doing, but they realized that the tax projection calculator that they ran in the beginning of their service was so beneficial to that client over filing the taxes on time.

So getting that feedback and talking to them can help.

#2: Getting Referrals

Secondly, if it is a one off client where you don’t think you’ll ever see them again, that’s still an opportunity, if you do a good job, to ask for a referral. And referrals are the best way to get business. They’re the best type of clients, usually because they’re people that you’ve worked with or a similar type of persona to that person. So the one off, it could be a great opportunity for referral and also feedback on just how to improve your service.

Secondly though, if you do have recurring clients, there’s going to be different points throughout that engagement where again you want to understand if you’re providing a quality service to them because we’ve all seen this in business, you could lose your best client one month. And have no idea why. And I think feedback, getting feedback and getting ahead of that is so important.

And then asking them, as you accomplish milestones with them in an ongoing engagement, “Hey, do you know anyone that would benefit from what we do?” That could be a consistent referral stream for you. So I would say that feedback for both can really help mitigate one, losing a big client, potentially because you get ahead of it, but then also just helping improve your service and messaging as time goes on.

Other Reasons (& More About The Above)

[00:09:21] Heather: And I want to point out a couple things there. So you use the term messaging, which is very marketing oriented and not a lot of lawyers think of it this way. So what he’s really saying, guys, is this helps your marketing. You learn so much about what your clients most value about you, your firm, the services you provide in ways that you probably don’t know. And you can utilize that information in your marketing, in your networking, when you’re speaking to people, because it gives you better selling points that will attract the right people to you that are most interested in what you provide. So that’s number one. So it’s kind of a growth mechanism.

And then the other thing is this idea that – and it wasn’t said this way, but I know that a lot of lawyers think this and this is the repeat client lawyers – “But I would know if something was wrong.” Not always. And sometimes this definitely happens a lot is if you have a bigger client where it’s numerous people that you’re servicing, you could have made one person mad. But that one person is the most important person who makes the decisions or who is the one whoever is making the decisions as to the law firms that represent them that that person goes to the most for feedback.

So you always want to stay up on where could I be doing better, what can I do? And I think it’s really important because even if you have a sense – and we’ll talk about this next – but if you’re doing it right, you’re probably gonna get more information from the feedback than you would in your day to day conversations with people. Because number one, people feel a little weird about bringing it up. They don’t want to hurt your feelings. And it is definitively, psychologically the case where they’re more likely to just tell you you’re fired than to tell you what you did wrong and let you fix it from a psychological standpoint. So understand that about people. This is why feedback is so crucial.

Blake: I’ll also add to back to the marketing and growth mechanism piece. This will help enhance your marketing efforts so much and you’ll get to a point where you feel like you’re just not having a guess at marketing anymore, where you actually understand your messaging, you understand what clients benefit the most out of your service.

And then on top of that too, we’ll go back to the example of an ongoing client relationship. You’re going to find new ways and new services to provide to that client. So you’re going to find ways because of feedback to upsell them on different engagements. You may find through a feedback form and talking with them that they have other problems going on that you had no idea about just because you were so stuck on the project that you’re currently working on with them. I find so often just simply asking for feedback, you start looking at it and you’re like, “Oh man, there’s tons of opportunity with this client and they’re already working with us.”

[00:12:19] Heather: Absolutely. It’s a huge way not just to market externally, but to keep growing the work that you do for current clients that you’re probably missing out on because you don’t know this information. And again, they don’t know to tell you. They’re just dealing with their day to day. They’re not like, “Oh, yeah, you can help with that.” We all make too many assumptions.

[00:12:42] Blake: Yes, feedback definitely helps cover those assumptions. And good feedback and bad feedback.

Getting Started With Client Feedback: What To Do

[00:12:48] Heather: Okay. So when it comes to – okay, you’ve got a lawyer, maybe a small law firm, thinking, “Yeah, we haven’t really done this. We need to.” How would they get started? What are your best tips for how to get feedback? What type of – is it forms? What do they do? And then what kind of questions would they put in there?

[00:13:11] Blake: So we at first, in our engagements, start with what we call our client health score tool. And this is on our website. It’s completely free. But it really helps us understand what areas they’re not doing already.

I find when we go into – we’ll talk about law firms specifically – there’s usually three scenarios as far as data collection goes and feedback collection goes. One, they’re not collecting it at all. Two, they are, but it’s spread across multiple platforms and spreadsheets and they’re just not doing anything with it. And then three, maybe they are collecting it, but again, it’s just sitting there and they’re not activating it. And when I say activating it, they could have a ton of positive feedback that they’re not simply reaching out to those people and saying, “Hey, do you know anyone else that could benefit from our service?” And taking action on that.

So those are three scenarios that we usually find. I recommend always in the beginning, really getting data in one place at first to understand where you’re missing out on. So we have a scorecard process that we follow and I can share the link to it for your listeners so they can at least see the template. But we start with that scorecard because that gets data into one place. That way we’re not guessing. And we’re not making our assumptions as we just talked about, which can be dangerous.

Once we have that in one place, we’ll go to that client journey map, which spreads it out. And we ultimately look at, here’s the intake process, and here’s where we can ask for customer satisfaction feedback and things like that. And that’s a great time to ask for it again because that’s the first time someone’s really contacting you.

[00:14:42] Heather: Right.

[00:14:43] Blake: You want to understand how that first interaction is going. I always recommend, as far as feedback goes and what to ask. In a customer satisfaction survey, for example, I use a tool called Typeform.

There’s multiple form survey creators out there. I like Typeform. Because you can embed it into emails, you can send it via text, you can make it super easy for that person to fill it out. And the approach I like to take when asking is having a metric driven question which could be customer satisfaction or it could be a net promoter score type of question. Then also leaving time for open ended feedback instruction to get some open ended feedback. Some may not fill that out, I understand that. But the ones that do it could, it could lead to some very important insights.

[00:15:27] Heather: Yeah, I would say, I think having a mix of the two is probably the best because if you’re not allowing for open ended questions or you know, constructive feedback, good or bad, you’re not going to have enough information. It’s really not going to tell you enough. But it’s better to get something and some people just won’t fill that out, sadly.

[00:15:49] Blake: Yeah, and what I like to do with Typeform is you can actually route people based on their responses.

For some clients is if we have a client that gives a very positive, a very positive feedback, we’ll actually route them to give a review on Google schedule a time to film a video testimonial and even just a word based testimonial. So you can do some pretty cool things off just a few simple questions. And what I’ll also say what we see usually is if people are sending out surveys, like we have a few clients that are getting ready to send end of the year surveys out and we’ve taken a look at them and they’re usually way too long and they’re just, you click on them, they’re boring, they’re long. People aren’t going to reply to that in today’s day and age. So I think it’s super important to make them engaging, make them personalized. When I say personalized to make this scalable, it’s as simple as maybe filming a video of yourself using services like Loom and you can embed that into the email and send that out. That’s something simple. But again people want more personalized experiences and I see that that as a way to get more engagement on your surveys.

[00:17:01] Heather: How many questions do you recommend?

[00:17:04] Blake: I usually do depending on where the client is at in the process, on average it’s usually around three to five. Some may only have one to two. Like if I’m going to send out a quick customer satisfaction survey, it could be a simple just rating right of how they did it. At the moment I find that as just a good gauge after potentially quick phone calls and things like that. But if you’re getting more in the weeds with a client. I’ve seen three to five as a good way to not scare them away, right from, from not giving their true.

[00:17:35] Heather: And honest feedback, I would think. And just this is my note here for lawyers and law firms listening to this. If you’re wanting to get feedback specifically on the intake process, for example, that’s one area that a lot of lawyers can do better on. Or even the billing process or something very specific that you’re sending. You know, okay, we just got you in and you went through this process. We would like to know your feedback. Two questions could probably do it because it could be were you satisfied or not? And give us, give us your specific comments as to why or why not. Right. But if you’re getting feedback after a matter has been finished and it’s a longer, it’s a project that’s going to probably require more like four or five questions, but not ten. Like you see these like long and people are, they’re going to see them and they’re not even going to start answering them. They’re just going to click out because they don’t have time for that.

[00:18:31] Blake: Yeah. And I find too with the longer surveys, especially in working with folks that may not be data centric, right, you’re just digging yourself a deeper hole when you’re asking more questions because you’re going to have more data points that you have to look at. Right. So I think keeping it short and simple is so important. And then I always say too, if there’s, if there’s a follow up question, right, just call that client and ask. Right. If you have a specific question related to them and feedback they’ve given, just call them and ask, have a meeting with them. Don’t feel like you have one shot, right, to get, to get feedback. And that’s why you have to ask 10 plus questions because again, usually does not get filled out.

What To Do With Your Client Feedback (Once You Have It)

[00:19:09] Heather: Okay, so they’ve gotten some feedback. What do they do with this information once they get it and when should they like I would think that they need to get a certain level, like not just one or two, but wait until they get some start to see some themes.

You know, unless I would say this, if you’re measuring your intake process and you have two people who’ve done it and two people say the exact same thing, like this really was a mess. I think that’s a sign that you need to go fix that.

When it comes to, you know, most things, how much do they, you know, how long do they wait and Then what do, how do they aggregate impact and what do they do with this information?

[00:19:50] Blake: So we like to keep it very simple and straightforward because again, if you’re asking too many questions, collecting too much feedback, it can be very daunting, especially for a small firm.

So when we map out that client journey and spread it out from start to finish, we’ll start to pinpoint areas of the client journey where we’re sending out these forms. And I find that to be super helpful just for gaining clarity and focus. Because you’ll start to see, like our intake process for example, we’re getting some poor feedback there. Let’s put our eyes on that, right?

Or maybe it’s in the ongoing case, right. When someone has signed, the onboarding process needs some fixing so you know that you can focus your time there. So I think it’s super critical to set out these forms and know at what stage these forms are going out. That way you can really drill on, hey, this is the area that I need to improve on.

And then once you get that feedback using a service like ours, or you can do this internally, looking at that and saying, okay, here’s where we need to improve, here’s what we can actually optimize on because people are really liking this part. And this goes back to the marketing conversation that we’ve, we just talked about. Here’s how we can use this to enhance our marketing.

And then secondly, usually if the service is doing well, they’ll have some positive feedback that I like to then launch a referral campaign on. So getting, getting those people on a list, calling them, meeting with them and asking, do you know anyone else that could benefit from our service? And bringing up, when you’re in that conversation, asking for a referral, bringing up the work that you just did for them, right? So sparking that, it’s very psychological and this goes back to the art part, but sparking that moment in their head where they were like, oh my God, they did such a great job for me, that’s a no brainer. I know three people for you, right. I find, I find a lot of times that especially as small business owners, we get very caught up in our day to day and we just don’t think to do that.

[00:21:43] Heather: We forget to ask, right? And we assume they’ll just refer, but they’re not thinking in those terms. Like it’s not that they wouldn’t, it’s not that they don’t care to, it’s that they’re not thinking about it because they’re in their Day to day, you know, drama and chaos and work and life and so. But when asked, they’re often like, oh, yeah, I know, somebody let me hook you up with.

[00:22:06] Blake: Exactly.

[00:22:06] Heather: And I find that all the time in my business. Right. And I did that as a lawyer too. That’s, that’s always how I’ve gotten my best clients is through referrals.

[00:22:14] Blake: Exactly. We just don’t, we just don’t think about it because we’re just caught up in our day to day. Right. I’m great. I’ve fallen into the same trap and I help with this stuff. Right. So it’s, I, I get it. But it’s not, it’s not complicated. Right? It’s not, it’s. It’s not complicated stuff and businesses can really benefit from this.

What Is Journey Mapping (& Why Do It)?

[00:22:35] Heather: So something that I hope is becoming clear and I’m going to kind of step back and we’re going to get into what this really means because we’ve kind of covered it, but not specifically enough yet. Is this journey mapping, understanding the client journey from the very beginning to the very end. We’ve been talking about, okay, intake and then maybe onboarding and then billing and then, you know, so how does somebody, My sense is that they need to actually sit down and think through what is the journey so that they can think through. Okay, where might we want to get the feedback?

[00:23:10] Blake: Yeah, yeah. And I’ll also say, and I’ll dive into a brief description of that and how we do it, mapping out this client journey it creates. And I’ve seen this in rooms. So much clarity and focus for not only the owner, but also the team members. And when team members have this in front of them, they start to think about, oh, here’s different ways that we can grow this firm. Right. They’re seeing the feedback, they’re seeing how to walk that client through the process. There’s just a certain sense of clarity that people get actually seeing it mapped out, especially if you’re a visual person like myself.

But as we’re mapping out that client journey, we use a tool called Miro. Anybody can use it. It’s a super just visual tool and it really helps create that map for us. And while we’re mapping that out, we start to pinpoint different areas of this is where we’re going to send surveys.

This is where it makes sense to ask for referral. This is where we should launch that referral campaign, et cetera. But you get it all on a map visually in front of you. And I think that it’s something that It’s a practice that anybody can do. But again, back to getting caught up in your day to day, you just don’t think about doing it right, but it is very beneficial.

And there’s three moments that we look for during the client journey as we’re mapping. And I’ll dive into the three moments now. One is a moment of insight. So a moment of insight is that moment where a client really sees the power of your brand and your business. And an example of this would be you see a lot of businesses do this now, but having calculators on your website or just driving with us our clients health score tool, driving some sort of insight for that potential client and showing them the value really helps with the sales process. And then second, what we look for is moments of elevation. So this is moments that spark excitement and joy. So often an example of this would be in the onboarding process. So often I find you go to work with a service provider, they close you as a client and then there’s kind of just crickets and you don’t really know what’s going to happen next.

That is a great moment to spark some excitement and let them in on your process and say, hey, here’s what we’re going to do for you, right? And get them excited about what’s ahead and just let them in on the process and the service you’re about to provide them. And then the third moment is moments of connection, which this is as it sounds, but just being a good, kind human and building some quality relationships throughout that process.

I find that so often, especially service providers like myself and professional service providers that we work with, you get so stuck in your specialty that you forget to build a relationship on more of a personal level with that person. In wealth management and accounting especially, it’s important as you’re building that relationship with the client, you find out what’s going on with their family. You find out that their son or daughter has a birthday coming up and you set it on your calendar to remind them. Right. It’s just different. Small things like that can really go a long way.

[00:26:14] Heather: You said that in wealth management. It’s important in the legal field too. I think it’s how I grew my business because I got to know my clients as individuals, not just as clients. And we became friends. And I think that’s a really great way to build a practice around people you enjoy working with. So it helps with. And we’ll get into this a little bit later because I don’t want to get this to this yet, although it’ll be soon, it helps with that work life balance. It helps with feeling good about what you do and when you do have to work longer and harder hours.

How Doing This Benefits Your Team and Firm Culture

Something you said that I wanted to point out, actually a couple of things. But the first thing is when you’re doing this mapping and you’re sitting down with people, my guess is it’s not just the owner, it’s the people who are involved in those processes. Right?

[00:26:59] Blake: Correct.

[00:27:00] Heather: So I feel like this process really could be utilized also to get people to take more ownership and pride over their piece and understand. Getting an understanding as to how important that piece is. So the accounting person can really see their role in the entire business so that the intake person, so that like all these people at different functions. And then it enables them to take over more too and to have ideas and have their ideas listened to. And I could see how this would really create a better culture for the firm.

[00:27:39] Blake: Yeah. It aligns people with their roles and responsibilities.

I personally think especially, and I’m sure you’ve seen this in smaller firms, everybody’s doing a little bit of everything. Right. And I think that there is a lack of clarity usually for roles and responsibilities especially, let’s say you have an intake person that should just be responsible for intake. They’re handling a little bit of onboarding, they’re handling a little bit of invoicing and billing. Right. And they’re not really sure like where their true focus should be. So I find that that mapping exercise can really help drive, drive focus for the entire organization mission.

[00:28:13] Heather: Okay. So we created a better culture. We created more independence on the part of different team members.

How This Improves Work Life Balance

I feel like that plays into not just the culture, but a better work life balance. And there’s, I think there’s another key to it as well. Right. But you had mentioned this when we had talked earlier before we started recording here, you had mentioned, I really want to make sure we talk about how getting this feedback and being able to implement the feedback helps with that. And as you probably know, that’s a huge issue in the legal field. I feel like a lot of people are probably listening to this going, I don’t know that this is worth it. This is a lot of time and effort. How is this really going to help me? It’s going to make it worse. Make the argument on the other side of it.

[00:29:04] Blake: Yeah. Well, as someone that has again grown up in the legal field and seen the ups and downs and lived with a legal firm owner, I have seen this process that we do create so much clarity and focus for that firm owner.

One, because they actually understand what their team members are doing, what they’re responsible for and what they can depend on them for. Second, being more of a feedback oriented and metric driven organization which we help with our scorecard process helps you understand where you’re at. I find a lot of the times that the law firm owners that we work with don’t have a grasp of where their pipelines at, so they’re super stressed all the time.  And don’t necessarily know where to go next, where to get the next lead, etc.

I find that focusing on client experiences and using that as a lever for growth really gets you to a point where you’re not guessing at growth anymore, you’re not spending countless dollars on marketing, et cetera.

So to summarize my argument, it would really just be that it helps deliver a, a level of clarity and focus that that law firm owner did not have before and their team members are happy too and coming to them with less problems and things like that.

Use Systems To Help With Getting Client Feedback

[00:30:13] Heather: I also think this is a great thing to pair with systems and processes because you can systematize a lot of this. It’s going to be a little clunky at first. You are going to have to spend some time at the front end even if you hire somebody. Have the meetings to discuss, to look at, but you can systematize it.

And I’ve got a whole episode y’all on that, so I’ll put that in the links for the show notes as well. But I think you could pair these really well together, not spend that much time and then ultimately save you time, create a better culture, have a better, you know, happier team and so all around it would make for a much happier existence and firm.

[00:30:56] Blake: Yeah. And we’re, we’re in the midst right now of building a tool that actually connects to a couple of the leading CRMs in the legal tech space and helps focused on smaller law firms, helps them monitor their client experiences and drive referral revenue. As you mentioned, systematizing it. We’re basically building out what we already do, but in more of a product fashion where multiple people can use it. The goal is to have thousands of people using it and helping them build happier and healthier businesses.

But I do agree with you and I think that this is all stuff again and I’m happy to, I’ll share more content with the audience because this is stuff that you can do on your own. Right. And this is stuff if you have someone in your organization that you would consider your right hand. Right. Or someone that’s more growth and data oriented at your organization. Take some time and they can probably do this. Right. And you could get your whole team on board as well.

It’s not complicated stuff. It just takes time to get started.

[00:31:51] Heather: Awesome. Okay, so are there any. I think that’s a good place to stop here. But before we let you go, what final tips would you like to leave the audience with? And then be sure to let people know where to go get that resource that you mentioned earlier.

[00:32:07] Blake: Yeah, yeah. So to get the client health score tool, it’s on our website boldgrowth.co. That again is a completely free tool to use. Takes a couple minutes to go through and it grades how client centric your business is. And then we turn around personalized insights in one business day.

As far as where I’d recommend people starting, I ultimately think it’s important to. I mentioned a scorecard earlier. To get data in one place and just understand where your organization is at. That’s going to drive clarity at first. And then you can say, okay, maybe we do client journey mapping next or maybe, hey, we really need to hone in on our pipeline and our pipeline health and figure out where that’s at.

But I think getting data into one place first is just a great way to start and ultimately track the three to five metrics that are most important to your organization. Right. We have a scorecard template that we use that tracks revenue, brand sentiment.

So we look at Google reviews and how people are responding to your brand and business. And we’ll track Net promoter score and customer satisfaction score. Keep it pretty simple. You could add total marketing spend that you have going out and things like that. But I like to keep it pretty simple. And then those metrics that are off, start to look into them more and see where that guides you.

[00:33:19] Heather: And I would just finalize, and I think you’ve said this, but I want to make sure people understand you don’t have to do it all at once. Start with one thing.

[00:33:27] Blake: Yes.

[00:33:28] Heather: Go there, get the feedback there, get better there and build out.

[00:33:32] Blake: Because if you, I’ll say this, I’ve seen people do it. If you do it all at once, nothing good is going to come out of that and it will never, it’ll never go to the finish line. So start super small.

[00:33:43] Heather: Thank you so much for this conversation. I think people are going to get a lot out of it.

[00:33:48] Blake: Awesome. Well, thanks for having me on.