#158: How To Receive Feedback, Give Feedback

Welcome back to the Life & Law Podcast. This is your host, Heather Moulder, and today we have a guest. I want to introduce you to Rachael Bosch. Rachael is a leadership development coach and founder of Fringe PD, which aims to help professionals to communicate more effectively at work.

Having worked in talent management for more than a decade, Rachel knows firsthand the value of and need for strong communication skills and inclusive leadership. And one of the things she feels very strongly about is, when it comes to leading inclusively, knowing how to give and receive constructive feedback (that horrible thing we all hate getting).

Welcome, Rachael.

[00:01:59] Rachael: Thank you so much for having me, especially to talk about one of my favorite things in the world.

[00:02:03] Heather: Yeah. When you reached out and said, I love talking about this, I’m like, okay, then we really need to, because this is an area more lawyers need growth in. Let’s just be honest, we do. I think high achievers in general don’t like getting feedback. We’re used to the gold stars. We’re used to being the best, and we don’t like hearing that we’re not perfect at everything.

Love-Hate Relationship With Constructive Feedback

[00:02:25] Rachael: I will “yes, and” you right off the bat. Everyone’s bad at this. Like everyone. A lot of it. A lot of your ability to manage constructive feedback has to do with your proximity and your frequency in terms of like, how much you’re around it. As with many other things in life. Right. The more you’re around something, the more normal and casual it feels.

And then the other piece is, this is like a bit of a mind switch for a lot of people, but people want constructive feedback. And actually, the younger you are, studies show the more you want it because you do not know what you’re doing yet. And so you need it to tell you.

And so I think, like, we all have the moment. I know we’ll talk about it, where we’re, like, want to throw up in our mouth a little bit because somebody gave us some constructive feedback. And to your point, like, what do you mean? I’m not perfect. Like, what?

But at the same time, we want it. And so that’s really the friction that, like. And the place that we like to play in, because people want it, but we don’t want to give it, and we don’t always love hearing it, so then.

[00:03:30] Heather: Right, right. Yeah. And I think. I think part of the problem for the lawyers, at least that I know, is a part of the problem, is most lawyers are pretty high achieving people.

They’ve done incredibly well in school throughout their lives. And then all of a sudden, you come out in the, I like to say, real world, and all of a sudden, you get all this feedback that you’ve never really gotten before. And it feels so weird, almost like this whole alien thing that you’ve never gotten feedback before. And too many people, even though they do want it, think that they take it too personally and think that means I’m bad, and that’s not the case. But that’s how. That’s the feeling.

[00:04:13] Rachael: 100%. And it’s not even that. It’s that they have been getting it. They’ve been getting it in the most structured and defined, clearly defined way. Right. They’ve been getting grades. Grades are feedback.

And then we go into the wild west of feedback, and we’re like, wait. That passing glance that the partner gave me was feedback. I’m confused.

What was my grade? Just give me my grade. And, like, I actually hear that a lot from junior associates in law firms is like, just give me a grade so I know where I fall. Like, and I know where I stand. And I think that it’s going from, like, this super clear structure to, like, completely vague, nonexistent, sometimes too prominent, like, everything you can imagine, right? Like, I really do mean, it’s wild west of feedback. Once you get into the real world.

[00:05:03] Heather: Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember the first time my first feedback was written.

It was the typical.

Write this really quickly, it was like a page and a half letter, the simplest thing in the universe, right?

I kid you not. He probably didn’t keep one complete sentence that I wrote. I get it back. And there’s red, red, red, the whole thing. And I felt like, oh, my God, I’m terrible, right? It was the worst. And he didn’t want to talk about it, and he had no time. So that was the way I got feedback. And this is how a lot of lawyers get feedback, right?

They just see the changes, or they get written something, and then nobody ever wants to talk about it. And that. That’s really hard, because then you’re still like, what did I do wrong? Why did you change this? What?

And over time, I started to figure out a lot of it wasn’t that I did anything wrong. It was personality. It was style. It was there. All these other things that I couldn’t know until I did a lot of work for him. And then I could start, like, tailoring things to his style and other things to other people’s style. But that was really, really the first time. And it was just brutal for me.

The Power of How To Give Feedback Well

[00:06:12] Rachael: I mean, stays with you, right? Like, you’re. You’re talking about this all these years later, and I think that people don’t realize that you have a lot of power when you’re giving feedback to really shape somebody’s future feedback reactions, and, like, do your future self a favor, do your colleagues future selves a favor, and, like, give feedback in a productive way.

Generational Shift In How To Receive Feedback (& Give It)

I am sure we’ll talk about this at some point. But there’s also just, like, there’s a shift in how lawyers are learning, and there’s just a generational shift in how human beings are learning right now. And this divide that we have in our firms.

If I have one more argument, productive argument, I’ll say with a well intentioned baby boomer partner, where I say one of our catchphrases that we. I mean, we have swag for this. That literally says a red line is not feedback. And then I get into it with them because they’re like, no, I got red lines. And my job was to sit there and absorb the changes and learn why and figure it out. And I say, that’s great.

That’s not how human beings learn anymore. And you practice law in an entirely different environment that was conducive to sitting and thinking and mulling. And that’s not the world that these junior associates live in right now. It is all about, how many hours can you bill?

And when I say to partners, what’s actually happening with your red line is that junior associate goes to the top of that word document and hits accept all and then moves on with their day. Yep. I think their heads explode. They’re like, you, they’re just hitting accept all. And I say, yeah, they got to get the next billable hour in. Like, they’re not thinking through things.

[00:07:54] Heather: There’s not time for that. I would agree. And I think that’s something people need to understand. It is different, and you’ve got to accept the reality of it. And not only is there not time, but they can’t bill for that.

[00:08:09] Rachael: Right?

[00:08:10] Heather: They can’t. Maybe if it took ten minutes, they could, but they can’t bill for the one, two, three, four, five or more hours it would take to go through and figure it out on their own. And because the billable hours have gotten so high, when are they going to do it? Like, when are they going to have time to actually do it?

A Note To Young Attorneys On How To Receive Feedback (& Take Time To Develop Professionally)

Now, I would advocate for those younger attorneys, having done this, to save those red lines and do have times where you look over, not the whole thing.

Okay. But kind of look at it and spend some time to, like, ask, was this change stylistic or was this actually legal or business oriented? Like, at least, and then get questions from it and go ask the questions.

[00:08:58] Rachael: Absolutely.

[00:08:59] Heather: Um, because that, that can really be very helpful. And I do think there is this issue, I think with younger attorneys thinking, well, I just can’t, I don’t have the time to go do my own learning. That is to your detriment.

You will be a way better lawyer. You will become a more effective and efficient lawyer down the line. Yes. It does mean working more hours that are not billable up front, but it will save you hours later. So think of it that way and schedule time every week for that. That’s my two cent that you gotta do.

How To View Feedback (Giving & Receiving): An Investment

[00:09:32] Rachael: I agree with you, and I actually, like, I want you to know I use that same argument in both directions, because everybody says, everybody in the feedback conversation says, I don’t have time. I don’t have time to read through the red line, or I don’t have time to give you my comments to the red line. I don’t have time to give the feedback. And I tell both sides, it’s an investment.

[00:09:51] Heather: Yes.

[00:09:52] Rachael: You know, so, like, you gotta make the investment both in your own career development and advancement and in the people that you’re managing up well.

[00:09:59] Heather: And it’s no different than the business development investment. Right. You invest time in marketing activities and networking activities. That will later reap rewards. They don’t immediately reap them exactly, but they, you know, the people who aren’t willing to put that time in are the ones who, a couple of years down the road, end up with zero business, a service partner who’s then more expendable than the guy who may not have billed as many hours two and three years ago, but has a book of business now. So you gotta think of the long term, not just the short term.

[00:10:33] Rachael: Exactly.

The Relationship Between How To Receive Feedback & Giving Good Feedback

[00:10:34] Heather: Okay, so I would presume, but you tell me if this is correct or not. Okay, that when it comes to giving and receiving feedback, but there is an interrelationship between the two. But if you are more open to and better at receiving feedback, that would at least help you be a better giver of feedback.

True or false?

[00:11:00] Rachael: I’m going to give you a real lawyer answer. Typically, yes.

[00:11:04] Heather: Well, that’s why I said could, right?

Don’t Assume How You Receive Feedback Is How Others Need To Receive It

[00:11:06] Rachael: Could, yes. And the exceptions come in when you lean too far into your preference of how to receive feedback as the only way you give feedback. So that’s. That’s the one carve out that I would make. But no.

Typically, if you are really good at, like, hearing, absorbing, and blending in people’s feedback into your work, it helps you then be able to turn around and teach other people. I think, like, there are a couple of real challenges on the side of the person giving feedback, not the least of which is the fact that, like, as somebody who gets more senior, you actually forget the nitty gritty.

The Interplay Between Non-Conscious Cognitive Work & How To Give Feedback

And I don’t necessarily mean forget in the way we typically think of, but it becomes non conscious. Like, a lot of your behaviors, a lot of the way that you do research or the way that you write becomes completely non conscious. So you’ve retained it, but in the deep recesses of your brain and being able to sit down and be like, well, here are my five steps that I go through. You don’t even think about them.

I try to teach people to think of this more as a physical activity. Like, if you are a swimmer or a cyclist, like, now go teach somebody how to do it. And you’re like, oh, God, my body just does it. And you’re like, right. The same is true with our cognitive work. And so I think that’s one of the bigger challenges is, like, how do we break that down for people?

[00:12:30] Heather: Okay. And maybe we’ll get into a little bit of that when we get to the giving feedback portion. But let’s start with receiving feedback.

How To Receive Feedback: Mindset & Action Items

What would you say to somebody who has come to you and said, okay, I know I need and want feedback, but I have a really hard time hearing it, and I don’t really know what to do with it. So what’s the first step for them?

Why Mindset Is Key For How To Receive Feedback Well

[00:12:52] Rachael: So I first want to say to whoever’s listening to this, this is not a hypothetical. This happens to me, like, once or twice a week.

[00:13:00] Heather: Right.

[00:13:00] Rachael: Of this conversation. Um, so the first thing that I always say is, if you feel strongly in any way about receiving feedback, I’m thrilled for you, because you’ve just demonstrated that you care about the thing that you got feedback on. It’s actually positive. I hear a lot from leaders right now that, like, they give really what they think is helpful feedback, and the person on the other side of it’s like, okay, cool. Or I swear to God, this has come up three times recently, heard as an entire response to feedback. Heard.

I don’t understand. I think it comes from all these chef shows, because they say that a lot on the shows. I don’t understand it, but I know that it’s pissing the partners off.

[00:13:48] Heather: It would make me mad as a partner.

[00:13:50] Rachael: Yeah. You don’t want to invest your, like, if time is the resource that we’re fighting against to give feedback, you spend your time giving feedback to somebody, and they’re like, cool.

It just shows, like, a lack of engagement and investment.

Having Feelings About Your Feedback Is A Good Thing

So the first thing I tell to somebody who, like, is having big feelings about feedback is great. You’re in a job where you care, and that’s beautiful, and that’s not something that a lot of people can say. It’s quite a privilege, honestly. And so starting from a place of really understanding and validating the emotional response is important.

I think one of the big challenges in law school is this whole conversation around, like, we remove emotions from the law. It’s not possible. Like, neurological. It’s not possible. And we would be doing young lawyers a service by teaching them to manage their emotions instead. We don’t. And then I end up dealing with them when they’re senior partners and they can’t manage their emotions.

[00:14:45] Heather: So that’s where people like me come in. Right? We help that management of emotions. And by the way, managing your emotions does not mean you don’t feel them.

[00:14:55] Rachael: No. Or you’re ignoring them.

[00:14:57] Heather: It’s okay to feel them. It’s okay to have them. They are valid. They are telling you something. You just need to know what to do with them in a respectful, appropriate way externally, and also healthy way internally.

[00:15:11] Rachael: Yes, exactly. So that’s the next that’s the pivot right to the next thing. Okay, so you’re having big feelings. Amazing. You care.

How To Receive Feedback With Charged Emotions: Buy Time, Pause

Now, what do we do with those feelings? First of all, are they productive in the actual conversation that you’re having with somebody? If. No, what I try to explain to people is it is perfectly fine to say, this is really helpful feedback. I am trying to absorb it all right now, but it would be really helpful if I could just take a little bit of time to think about it on my own and then come back to you and have a follow up conversation.

[00:15:44] Heather: I can attest to that. So let me. I don’t know if I remember when we first talked. I may have mentioned this to you. I don’t remember, but I’ve talked about it before elsewhere, and I remember so clearly.

Heather’s Example of How To Receive Feedback (You Really Don’t Expect)

I thought I was going to be promoted to partner. Okay. I was the first associate in the Dallas office of GT to be promoted to partner. But a year before I was promoted, I thought I was, like, first time eligible. I was supposedly this rock star associate. Definitely going to be promoted. Right.

So I go into my end of year meeting thinking this, and instead here, no, we don’t think you’re ready. You got another year. And FYI, you’re known as somebody with a sharp tongue.

This was my constructive feedback, which I was not ready to hear in that moment at all. So I did not react to it externally. I knew enough to, like, manage that and say, okay, appreciate it. Thank you. But I needed to move on. Now, I did not say, can we talk about this later? I, like, I wanted to rush on past it and, like, oh, my God, how dare you? Is what I’m thinking on the inside.

So I will say there was, like, a 72 hours period post this meeting where I was like, that’s ridiculous. Why do they only say this to women? Men never get this comment. Indeed, because they don’t.

And I could have stuck with that and moved along my merry way, and I still probably would have made partner the next year, to be honest with you. But after about 72 hours, I realized, you know what? I don’t know what he really meant by that. I don’t know what the context is. I need to figure that out. And so I had the wherewithal to go back and ask some questions.

Turns out this comment was made by a client and younger associates who I had managed, some of which were women. In fact, most of the comment came from women, not men.

[00:17:44] Rachael: Yep.

[00:17:44] Heather: So I had been all upset assuming it was because I was a woman. And they never say this to men. But he thought he was doing me a favor because he was hearing this and he knew. And here’s what it boiled down to.

I’m very honest. Like, super duper honest. I could be a little brutally honest. And up to that point, I was pretty proud of that fact. This was the moment I needed to go, oh, I need to learn how to deliver certain things better in a more kind, caring, compassionate way. I can still deliver the same news. This was my lesson on learning how to give feedback, by the way, and starting to learn how to give it better.

[00:18:19] Rachael: I love it.

[00:18:20] Heather: Had that not happened, like, as I made partner, I developed stronger relationships with my clients, including the one who made that comment.

I became known as a great mentor of young associates and mid level associates and helping them to get to partner.

And I know for certain that helped me become a really good coach because I now have to give lots of feedback to my clients, and it’s not always what they want to hear. But had I not taken that into account, I don’t think I’d be here. I don’t think I would have been as successful. I don’t think there’s so much right to that. And it’s so easy to assume so. Even though I didn’t initially say, hey, can I talk about it? I did go back and ask the questions, and I highly recommend that tip.

[00:19:07] Rachael: Yeah. Not everyone is ready to absorb and productively move into exploration of feedback in the exact moment that they’re getting it. And I think that what happens is nobody practices these skills.

Practice the Skill of Asking For Time To Digest and Reflect

Like, if you are a young associate, like, I encourage, like, find a friend and literally practice saying, that’s really helpful. Do you mind if I take some time to absorb it and then come back to you? Because if not in the moment, you’re never going to say it. Like, it’s not something that we’re used to saying and, like, advocating for a little bit of space for ourselves, but it’s so powerful, whether you say it or not, certainly like you say, do it, you know, go back, ask more questions.

Because the other thing about your story is you’re spot on. Not all feedback is about you.

Frequently it’s not. And if you’re not getting feedback enough, you don’t have enough of a data set to be able to see this is a trendline or this is an outlier.

[00:20:08] Heather: Right?

[00:20:09] Rachael: So that’s another piece about it that we tell young associates all the time. Get feedback at a pace that makes you uncomfortable, ask for it at a pace that makes you uncomfortable. Because you need enough of it to know. Like, you know, the sharp tongue is such a great example because it’s in that bucket of feedback that is quite often gendered. I will tell you, we have research on this. Like, it frequently does come from other women.

And so that does not surprise me at all. In your story, there’s a really interesting case study about this.

[00:20:44] Heather: Oh, I think women can be more brutal to other women.

[00:20:48] Rachael: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Why Biased Feedback Can Still Be Very Useful

And so the idea, though, that that isn’t useful, I think is what ends up happening. Oh, like, that’s not right or that’s not real or that’s biased. And so it’s not useful. All feedback is useful. It is. So it’s just powerful information that you’re gathering.

So if you get vague feedback, which you got in that situation and which frequently is what is delivered, whether it’s because that person is just non consciously doing something so they don’t really understand the steps that it takes or because they’re passing off what could be potentially a biased comment to you and they haven’t done their homework to, like, think through where this came from.

If you get vague feedback, the best thing you can do is go back and ask for more. If you are somebody who has the presence of mind to do it in the moment, God bless you, you’re going to go far in life.

If not, you’re like, most people just ask for this space and then go back and, like, dig into it and ask those clarifying questions because either way, you’re getting valuable intel. Right?

Like, let’s say it had just been that one client and that one client, like, really just needed to be getting messages in a different way. You would have found that out and then you wouldn’t have changed your management style. And like, the added that, the kind of ness and compassion piece to the feedback delivery, which I love that you, you came around to that because I do think it’s such a good best practice. But maybe it was just, oh, I just need to make sure that I know my client’s style.

[00:22:19] Heather: Yes, because they all do have a style. And here’s the thing. I think a lot of people are afraid to ask those questions because, yes, they’re afraid to hear, but they also feel like, oh, but they’re not going to want to talk about this or they’re not going to want to tell me or they’re not. Look, they offered it up in the first place.

What to Remember When Receiving Feedback (To Change Your Mindset Around How To Receive Feedback Openly)

Most people who go there, it’s hard to give that feedback. Constructive feedback is hard to give. They’re willing to do it, which means they care. They’re not going to give it to you if they don’t care to some extent. So you asking the questions is going to show you care, too.

[00:22:51] Rachael: Exactly.

[00:22:52] Heather: And it’s going to. It actually, this person I got this from was kind of a mentor at the time, but not really. This developed a more mentor mentee relationship for us, and it was super helpful to me in my career, to be honest with you.

[00:23:07] Rachael: No, I totally see that. I think, like, yes, it shows that they care. I think there’s something, like, even more fundamental that people do not get, which is not only does this person care about you, which is great, and they can develop into a big support for you. Nobody bothers to give feedback to somebody they don’t think has the capacity to change. So not only do they care, I would like, add, they believe in you.

[00:23:34] Heather: Yes.

[00:23:35] Rachael: And so if they believe in you, like, that is a valuable relationship, and you want to foster that, and you want to demonstrate that you take what they’re saying seriously. Like, getting upset, having your big feelings is okay.

You know, obviously keep it within reason, and maybe you keep it, like, I. I hate, like, the feedback of, like, don’t cry when you get feedback, if you are having a big emotion and a tear comes up. Okay, we’re human beings. I get that. That’s just part of life.

Just then be able to, like, excuse yourself and say, like this. Can I come back to you when I’m a bit more composed? This. This is very important to me, you know? Um, but, like, having the big feeling is fine. It’s good.

Now, what do you do? And that’s kind of what you were saying earlier, right. And, like, transitioning then into. Okay, do I need more information? What resources do I need? What can I do next? I mean, when we. And I know I keep kind of bouncing back and forth between the giving and receiving side here, but they are there. My guys, they’re, like, so linked, right?

[00:24:36] Heather: Interconnected. Yeah, they are.

Tip For How To Receive Feedback (and Give It): Get/Give An Action Item

[00:24:38] Rachael: And I tell people who are giving constructive feedback all the time, if you give constructive feedback without an action item, all you’ve done is beat up on that person.

It just made them feel crappy, and that’s awful. Like, give them something to do. Right.

And so for the person receiving that feedback, ideally you’re given something to do. And if not, you could say, like, what’s something that I can do to help move this forward? Or I tell junior associates all the time, my God. My favorite question. What’s a resource that you really enjoy that you think might help me, because people love to share what they have learned.

And so, like, now this is. Now it’s your favorite resource. Well, now it’s going to be mine. And now we’re in this together.

[00:25:26] Heather: You know, like, that creates more connection, too, with that person and makes them more willing to continue to give you good feedback and open up more about how to help and to give you the advice and all of that.

For Those Who Tend To Disconnect When Receiving Feedback

So I have a question going back to the issue of people who seem like they’re not receiving it. Like, don’t seem to care.

[00:25:44] Rachael: Heard.

[00:25:45] Heather: Yeah, heard. Or. Okay, thanks. You know, that kind of weird. Okay, sure, whatever. You know, it’s almost like a “whatever”. So in your experience, I think that could come from a couple of different places, right?

It could come from not really caring and not being engaged in the workforce, which is a big red flag for you. If that’s you, you need to find somewhere else to work or something else to do that. That’s, like, number one, just FYI, people. But does that also show sometimes that people are just afraid to hear it?

[00:26:17] Rachael: Oh, it can show a number. They’re afraid. They’re in shock. They are afraid to hear it, but they’re also afraid of the consequence of it. Right. Like, there’s. There’s a lot I favorite. When I was inside law firms. I used to love when associates would come to me over, like, the smallest little bit of constructive feedback, and they’ll be like, am I going to get fired?

And every single time, and still to this day, I will tell people, do you know how hard it is to get fired from a law firm? I know you are going to know for years that it’s happening. You’re going to have so much Runway. Like, it’s going to be so well documented. There will be signs all along the highway that you are about to get off on this exit ramp. Like, you’re not going to miss it.

So I always, like, laugh. I’m like, no, it’s just feedback. You know, like, but that catastrophizing takes over, and it’s such a dominant sort of, like, cognitive, like, trip up that we have. Like, it’s such. I always think of catastrophizing a little bit. Like, in cartoons, you know, like, there’d be, like, the big net between the two trees and the cartoon character walks in, and it, like, swoops them up into.

Into the sky, and they’re, like, caught in the net. I always feel like that’s kind of what catastrophizing does to your brain because you are just like, not capable of doing anything anymore. Like any motion you try to make in that net actually sends you somehow in the wrong direction and you’re flailing. And that’s kind of what catastrophizing does. And if we’re all being honest here, and I think we should be, like a lot of law firms motivate people with fear and money.

[00:27:48] Heather: Yes.

Fear of Giving And Receiving Feedback (It Goes Both Ways)

[00:27:49] Rachael: And those are the two drivers of motivation. And I think the money thing has gotten wild. Like, it’s out of control. The money right now, what we’re paying students who are coming out of law school, I mean, bless their hearts, I love them. They got a lot of debt. It’s so much money. And then the fear side is a lot of what undermines things like this kind of open, compassionate communication.

And I’m going to say fear cuts both ways there, because there were all these lawsuits, just this over the past twelve months about feedback that was delivered and associates suing their firms. And I think all of those suits have now been dropped or, you know, they all turned out to be big kind of nothing burgers.

But now when I go and teach feedback skills to law firm partners, you better believe at least once in every program somebody’s bringing up those lawsuits, they’re also scared, and they’re scared of the liability and they’re scared, oh, this is my best mid level.

I really need to tell them they’re doing this thing bass ackwards. But if I do, are they going to be mad at me and not want to work with me anymore? Like, I can’t sustain my practice without this mid level.

[00:29:03] Heather: Right.

[00:29:04] Rachael: Right now I’m scared of that. So I think that’s a kind of like an overarching theme, is that fear? But we sort of, we’re fighting a system that we’ve built, right? Like, oh, why is everyone so scared? Like, oh, I don’t know.

[00:29:22] Heather: Maybe because it’s built in.

So what would you recommend to somebody going, you know what, I’m one of those people that’s probably received it as a, oh, okay, thanks. And that’s it.

What in there? Like, oh, I do know I need it. I do know that’s good for me. I’m probably not reacted in the best way. How do I make a change? Like, is there a mindset shift they need? Is there a way they can remind themselves before they get, you know, how? Or what about in the moment when it’s like unexpected, you know, and they don’t want to react that way, how would you help them?

Work On Your Inner Voice + Narratives

[00:29:59] Rachael: I mean, so that’s where you got to work on your internal messaging for sure. And, like, we know that about mindset, right? Like, in the mindset research, there’s starting to be some, like, varied, hot takes on it. But in general, I do think that it holds true. Right?

Like, so when you get feedback, is your immediate thought, like, kind of what you described? Like, oh, God, I’m so bad at this. Why did I not do it perfectly? Why am I a bad lawyer? I oftentimes will say, although summer associates don’t get this reference anymore, but I think folks listening will. But, like, do you start basically questioning all your life choices? Why did I go to law school? Why did I become a lawyer? Am I going to live in a van down by the river? Yep.

And so I think, like, that kind of, that’s that catastrophizing that takes over. So part of it is training themselves to think. When I get constructive feedback, I’m learning.

When somebody tells me I’ve done something wrong, I have an opportunity. Right? It’s like adding in those little add on phrases. And I am a big fan of, if you can see it, you’re going to absorb it. Like, I will tell you, I don’t know. I’m sure you’ve done this with coaching clients, too, right? Like, put a post it on your monitor, right?

The Power of A Post-It Note

[00:31:08] Heather: Oh, post its. I had a whole newsletter once around the power of a post it note in this realm. Like, yeah, it’s crazy how simple some of this stuff can be, but it’s just quick and simple reminders that your eye season is like, oh, yeah, remind. Remember this?

[00:31:23] Rachael: Yes. And I mean, to the extent that, like, if you’re going into, I know you said caught by surprise, but let’s say you’re going into your performance review or you’re going into a very structured feedback call. First of all, you better be bringing something in there to write on because if you’re not, as the leader giving you feedback, I’m already annoyed at you. So right on the top of your page, this is a learning opportunity.

Literally, just write it and then look at it, and it can actually change the way that you’re feeling in that situation.

Ask Good Questions

[00:31:49] Heather: You should go further and say, what’s my opportunity from this?

[00:31:53] Rachael: I love that.

[00:31:54] Heather: It activates your brain to force it to see this as, okay, what is the opportunity?

What can I get from this? What? Like, because you know what the brain loves challenges. Puzzles. Like, we love to solve problems. We love puzzles. It kind of flips it into that.

[00:32:11] Rachael: Absolutely. Yes. I love that. And I think that then you also have the opportunity to bring that, like we were talking about creating a partnership with the person, giving you feedback that then you can, I want to find the opportunity. Let’s say you, you aren’t finding it. You’re getting through and you’re like, I really want to find the opportunity in here. What do you see as my growth opportunity given what you’ve just told me? Like, you can even ask them. Like, turn if you can’t find it, ask them. They ask them.

[00:32:39] Heather: And then when they give you probably a too vague or big picture comment because that’s often what they’ll do at first, say, okay, great, thank you so much.

If you were me, what would you, what would your first step be? What would you want to, what would you focus on? Yeah. Yeah. Try to get an action item from them. Always a, it gets, again, it helps you figure out what can I do? And then you’re going to get more ideas from it. But then it also tells you what they see as that next step and it will help grow that relationship for you to ask the question and then go do it.

Hot Tip For How To Receive Feedback: Schedule Follow-Ups

[00:33:15] Rachael: Exactly. And I mean, I think when you have a good relationship there, too, like schedule a follow up. All right, I’m going to work on that. Like, why don’t we get coffee like a month from now? Depending on what it is, it might be a shorter period of time and, like, we can talk about how it’s going. Yeah.

Like, to your point about that person being sort of a mentor and then really a mentor, this person has, especially if it’s not formal performance. Right. This person has raised their hand and said to you through their behavior, I believe in you. I think you can do this. I think it’s important for you. They are demonstrating I’m on your side. So, like, make the alliance for real.

Remind Yourself They Believe In You

[00:33:56] Heather: Absolutely. And I would say one of your post its, if you have more than one, to me, if it was me back when I was practicing and I’d known the power back then because I didn’t, would be, you know, feedback. Feedback means they believe in me.

[00:34:10] Rachael: Yeah.

[00:34:11] Heather: Remember, feedback means they believe, like, they believe they believe in me. They believe I’m capable. They believe I can learn. They believe I have promise. They wouldn’t waste their time on me. So, like, that is so important to remember.

[00:34:24] Rachael: It really is. And there’s definitely a, like a behavioral prototype that I’ve seen a lot of where once somebody starts to, and it falls a lot on perfectionists and type a’s when somebody starts to get constructive feedback, they just go to a deep, dark hole. And no matter how much people reach down to kind of lift them out of that hole, every time they see somebody reaching down, they sort of like shudder away because they just can’t take it anymore.

You got to get out of the hole because once you’re in that hole, it is very difficult to see the light around you. But if somebody is reaching, and like, this is a big thing, like I try to tell people, if somebody is bothering to reach down into that hole, they want to help you take the help. Like, none of us can do this alone. It is a tough industry. It can be challenging at times. Certainly, as we were saying earlier, the hours around all of this have become incredibly taxing.

My God, when somebody offers you help, take it.

[00:35:32] Heather: Yeah, help. It’s interesting to me that a lot of lawyers see help as a weakness. It means I’m weak if I accept it or they’re giving their offering and no, no, no, no.

[00:35:44] Rachael: The whole damn thing is a team sport.

[00:35:46] Heather: It is a team sport, but it also means you’re worthy of helping.

No, senior, I don’t care if they’re a senior associate, a partner, junior partner, senior partner. Nobody senior of you is going to offer to help if they don’t see your worth and don’t think you’re capable of getting to that next level. They’re just not. They have time constraints, too. They are not going to bother.

A Note About Connection & Belonging (& How It Relates To Receiving Feedback)

So you’ve got to see it from that perspective. And I like to tell my clients, and I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again, human beings are made to connect with other human beings. The biggest and best way, and I learned this through my cancer, to connect with other human beings is to allow others to help you when you are vulnerable.

Because guess what? We all have our own unique strengths and skills. That means they have strengths and skills that are meant to be helping other people. It’s not just a one way street. It’s a two way street. You give, you also receive. That’s just how it works. That’s how belonging happens.

By the way, some of the, you hear about all of these attorneys who feel isolated, who don’t feel like they belong. And one of the things I see is they don’t talk to other attorneys very much. They don’t receive help from other attorneys. And a lot of this is, they’ve closed themselves off. So this is a big step to get away from that in general. It’s not just about the feedback.

[00:37:06] Rachael: Yeah, no, I could not agree with that more. And I think, like, when we zoom out and look at those motivators and those incentives in our organization, organizations, like, we really need to question how the structure is playing into that, because the structure of most law firms is not sitting there saying, like, let’s connect with each other.

[00:37:29] Heather: Right. The structure creates a culture.

[00:37:33] Rachael: Yeah. And the structure oftentimes creates a barrier.

[00:37:36] Heather: Yes.

[00:37:37] Rachael: And that barrier is time. Right. Like, ultimately, that’s at the end of the day, I think about this with, like, other work cultures globally.

So, I mean, a lot has been said about France and, like, the way that they handle their downtime. But actually, one of the things I think is most interesting about french labor is lunch.

The lunch is not, you don’t eat at your desk. And I’m not 100% sure if this is mandated or just culturally mandated, but you usually leave the office and you go with your coworkers, and it is rude to talk about work.

[00:38:15] Heather: Oh, wow.

[00:38:16] Rachael: So you have lunch, and you’re shooting about your kids and who went where this weekend and what’s happening in the world, and you are literally bonding. You’re creating those little moments of connection so that then when you get back to work, there is an inherent caring about people because you know them.

[00:38:36] Heather: And I think you know this. It’s interesting that you bring this up. So, couple of things. We all think we can’t take the time, which is just not true, because you need breaks. You need small breaks and varying times. I have a whole podcast around taking breaks every 90 minutes to 2 hours. You need to be taking a break. A scheduled break, not a. Oh, when I’m finished with. No, a scheduled break, your brain needs it. It’s necessary. Yes, but then you need a bigger break, too. And having that break during lunch is perfect. It makes you more productive, it makes you more efficient. You will actually get more done.

[00:39:09] Rachael: Yeah.

An Example of Being Connected & Engaged

[00:39:10] Heather: The other thing I would say is, you get more done when you’re more engaged. And I can speak to this. So, my first law firm, we didn’t hardly ever go to lunch together. Like, I had some friends in the firm in other sections where we would go maybe once every other week. But I never went to lunch with the people I worked with, and I did not feel connected there. There’s a reason I left after five years.

My second firm there was this partner I worked with a lot early on who became a mentor to me. Three to four times a week, he would come out, hey, let’s go to get lunch. And he would take other people, too. We went to lunch all the time, and we very rarely talked about work. We would talk about our families. We would talk about what our kids were doing. We would talk about. It was a game changer in, like, I was working more hours, doing harder work, having to relearn a lot of new things. And yet I loved that because we had real belonging and camaraderie and collaboration, and it just. It was a very different experience. So I can definitely speak to that, too.

[00:40:14] Rachael: Yes. I mean, it’s so major, I think about. I just told this story just recently to somebody else in a completely different context. But one of the partners that I probably had one of the most challenging working relationships with, of any partner I ever worked with inside law firms. I ran into him probably, I don’t know, six months. It wasn’t that long after I had left the firm to start the company.

And I ran into him on the street. And I am fair. I’m a very transparent human being in most of my life. And I have a child free family. That is something that is. That I talk about that I am. I’m the fun aunt to, like, the 100th degree. I love that job in my life, but I have a child free family. And this partner ran into me on the street maybe like six months. Like I was saying, after I left and started the company. And the first thing he did was ask me how my kids were.

You don’t know me at all.

And it goes like, your story is exactly right. When you feel that connection, like, it just makes such a difference in you. God, it’s the same investment in time as I would like. When I say time is an investment in giving and receiving feedback.

A Note To The Feedback Providers (If You Want The Recipient to Take Your Feedback)

Get to know your people, too, because that’s another. There’s a feedback tie into this, too, which is, like, we used to always say, praise in public, criticize in private. That used to be the rule of thumb with feedback, and it’s not anymore. And the more I work in the neurodivergent space, it’s, like, so important.

I always now say, praise in public, criticize in private, but know your people, because some people hate to be praised publicly. Like, it makes them want to crawl into that hole. I was just describing as much as somebody else getting constructive feedback, even privately and kindly. Like, they can feel just the same kind of terror and fear and anxiety about it.

So you have to know your people when you don’t know. When you’re coming up to me, asking me how my kids are, it shows, like, how much you don’t know your people, and that’s like my personal life. But you also have to know them holistically as professionals, and you have to take that time because every human being is different and their needs are different when you’re managing and leading them.

[00:42:37] Heather: And so what that really means, people, is, yes, you can have some general rules of thumb that are your rules, but at the end of the day, get to know your people and tailor your management and leadership style to each individual. It’s not that hard.

[00:42:52] Rachael: No, it really isn’t. I mean, we’re a big fan of situational leadership as a framework, and it allows you to say, this is my style, and my style is always the same, but this is how I shift in the different spaces. The same as, like, oh, this is who I am as a human being, but when I’m in certain spaces, I shift and adapt. Right. But there’s some things that are my values, my boundaries, my beliefs, those are always the same, no matter where I go.

With your leadership style, your style is the same. But now you flex to the needs of each person. You don’t compromise on all of it, but you gotta flex because not everybody needs the same things.

[00:43:31] Heather: That’s right. That’s right. Okay, so any final thoughts about how to receive feedback and what to do with it?

Final Thoughts & Action Items On How To Receive Feedback

Use Post-It’s

[00:43:40] Rachael: I think the biggest thing is to, once you work through your emotions and you get to that action plan, like commit to it and really, like, we’re going to just give all of the quick tips here. Like, we love a post it.

Calendar Check-In’s (Even With Yourself)

I’m positive you’re going to feel the same as me about this. But if I’m not, if I’m wrong, like, I can’t wait to hear why calendar some check ins with yourself, even. Even if you don’t have somebody else to talk to, like, put on your calendar. Like, what have I done to advance this, this week? Make it a private appointment? Nobody needs to see it.

I am a big fan of using emojis and calendar appointments because I know what it means, but nobody else does. So that’s the whole title. It’s just an emoji. And then I know what that emoji means and that emoji because the calendar appointment, right. It’s just there to jog your memory and be like, oh, are you doing this? This still happening? You know, so it’s like a secondary level of checking in and you can automatically just put it on, like a renewal where it shows up every week.

[00:44:38] Heather: Yeah, like a weekly check in. I mean, I think this is great because it’s, it’s. You’re basically talking about structured accountability to yourself because the feedback is only as good as what you do with it.

[00:44:48] Rachael: Indeed.

Schedule Time To Take Action

[00:44:49] Heather: And if you don’t take action and actually work towards whatever it is you’re working towards.

Yeah. Having received it nicely, saying you’re going to work on it is meaningless if you don’t actually do the thing and.

[00:45:01] Rachael: Talk about something that will undermine your relationship with that potential advocate that you have who bothered to give you that feedback is if you ignore the feedback, best believe they are not coming back to you with more in the future.

How To Give Feedback Effectively & Compassionately

[00:45:13] Heather: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, those are great points. And what about, let’s turn it on to the giving of feedback? You’ve given a lot of tips already. We’ve already kind of interconnected it, but maybe we in the last couple of minutes, pare it down to, like, the framework, a step by step, something that people can kind of like more to.

[00:45:35] Rachael: Yes.

[00:45:35] Heather: To help them give better feedback.

Tip 1: Be Curious

[00:45:37] Rachael: So I will start with my favorite thing, which is I love asking attorneys, especially more experienced ones, is it better to be curious or. Right.

And they love to say, oh, no, accuracy is the most important thing. Curiosity is important, sure, but accuracy first, all day, every day, every day. Then I say to them, you know what’s interesting is that the more curious about something you are, the more accurate you tend to be. And so curiosity as a feedback provider is a skill that is just not tapped into at all. So we start giving feedback from, I have something to tell you. I’m here to deliver this to you.

It is inherently not conversational because the person giving feedback typically just walks in and is like, hey, here’s this presentation. And you open it, it’s just like steaming poop in there. And it’s like not fun at all for anyone. No one’s enjoying it anymore. Instead, what I really try to teach people who are giving feedback is to sit in curiosity.

Most people want to do a good job at their job, especially the people like that we’re working with these high achiever types. They went to really nice law schools. They work in some prominent firms. Some of them, right, like, but you are somebody who intends to do a good job. Like, you’re not walking around trying to screw up. And sometimes I think feedback is delivered without that peace in mind. It’s like, oh, they’re lazy or they didn’t care or they don’t want to take the time. And it’s like, no, people actually want to be good at their jobs.

Ask Why (In The Right Way)

So if they’re not being good at their jobs, the person delivering the feedback, like, your real role in this situation is to figure out why.

Why did they not do this thing the way that you wanted them to? Why did they not reach the outcome that you wanted them to? Why didn’t happen in the timeframe that you wanted it to? And why is a question.

Instead of questioning, though, we walk in and we tell, you, didn’t do this in the timeframe. I think everyone probably knew what the deadline was and that it was missed. Right. That’s not productive. Instead, hey, this missed the deadline. This was kind of the impact of it. What happened between when we originally talked and when you ended up missing that deadline? Like, walk me through it. I love a what happened? What’s keeping you? Or a walk me through your process. Yeah.

How To Ask Why Without Using The Word “Why” (or Being Accusatory)

[00:48:04] Heather: I would note, don’t say why.

[00:48:06] Rachael: Why is like a hot topic where I don’t mind why. Like, I love why. Because I love curiosity on how it’s asked.

[00:48:14] Heather: Yeah, but usually when a lawyer asks why accusatory. So you can ask why that what happened? Walk me through is exactly the same question but better.

[00:48:27] Rachael: Yeah, I think tone is so crucial. Right. And like, that is a piece that is important. I love a why. Like, I know lawyers, like, push back on me on the why all the time, but why, like, we play the five whys constantly why gets you to underlying motivation.

[00:48:45] Heather: Oh, yeah.

[00:48:46] Rachael: And that’s why it’s used.

[00:48:48] Heather: I think why is a better question when you’re questioning yourself. Okay, why is that? Or what? You know, but for most attorneys, especially managing younger attorneys, it tends not to be asked appropriately. But you can, you’re basically asking why by saying, hey, what happened?

[00:49:06] Rachael: Can you walk what happened? Exactly. And I think that that process question, especially when, like, I gave the timeline example, that’s, you know, a little more discreet.

[00:49:16] Heather: Right.

[00:49:17] Rachael: But you didn’t reach the conclusion that I thought you were. You missed this piece of the research.

What you really need to know is what that person did.

[00:49:26] Heather: Yes.

Be A Detective

[00:49:26] Rachael: You will also uncover things like, I had somebody that I was working with recently where, when you asked, like, what was your process? How did you get here? Literally, just tell me what you did. Don’t, there’s, I’m not trying to pick anything apart. Just tell me what you did.

They could not articulate a process to me.

So I was like, oh, I get it. I know what we need to work on now. You don’t have a clear workflow for this, so you’re kind of just bouncing between things and scrapping it together, and there’s nothing clear and consistent about your problem. I can help you create a process.

Tip 2: Be Clear (Don’t Muddy The Water By Being Passive)

There was a great. Well, there was an interesting Washington post article that came out recently about giving feedback to Gen Z, and it kind of focused on this. Like, you have to give them the process right. And you have to walk them through that. Um, I think that. I don’t know if you’ve read that article, but I think you would be on my camp, which is that we also don’t need to be so passive when we’re giving feedback. You can be direct and kind simultaneously.

[00:50:28] Heather: Yes, you can.

[00:50:29] Rachael: And when you’re passive, you actually just muddy the water and make.

[00:50:32] Heather: Yeah, passive, I don’t think, works very well because then they’re not clear about what you really want.

[00:50:37] Rachael: Yeah, but I think, like, that, figuring out that you are there as the feedback provider, and I say feedback provider, that’s usually the boss, the leader, the supervising attorney, whomever it is. Right. Or even the client eventually. Your job is to help people.

So you have to figure out what went wrong and what happens a lot.

Tip 3: Don’t Assume.

And I hear this come off people’s tongues so fast is an assumption. And that assumption does tend to fall on, like, the lowest common denominator of human behavior. They’re lazy. They don’t care.

And I love to say to people, I’m like, how many attorneys at this firm do you think are lazy and don’t care about their job? Like, honestly, how many? And they’ll be like, oh, I don’t know. I guess not.

You just have to question their assumptions in that, because people do care. They want to do a good job. And if you found somebody who genuinely doesn’t care, great. Get curious.

In that feedback conversation, it’ll become obvious really quickly that they’re, like, out interviewing for another job right now. I think one of the things that I find really interesting, and I know we were talking about why in that sort of, like, depository tone, almost a little bit of, like, coming at you. But I think it’s interesting watching lawyers, and particularly those who do investigations or who are in litigation and are doing a lot of depositions. It’s like, you know how to ask questions that dig to the source of something.

[00:52:07] Heather: Yes.

[00:52:07] Rachael: Somehow you sit down to give feedback to a junior associate, and we tell them, just be better.

Just try to. Try to be. Your writing should be better. I I don’t know if you’re a Schitt’s Creek fan. Do you like.

[00:52:20] Heather: I’ve never watched it.

[00:52:22] Rachael: Okay. Well, for any Schitt’s Creek fan listening. Like, I always think that this is the folded in scene. So there is a scene where David Rose and his mother, Moira, are making enchiladas. They have clearly never cooked a meal ever in their entire lives. And they get to the step in the recipe, and it says, fold in the cheese. And David says, what do you mean?

How do you fold in the cheese? And she says, you just fold it in. And they do that about three or four times. And it’s a very funny bit, but that’s kind of how we give feedback to people. It’s like we’re just like, just do it. Well. How, if they had known how, they would have done it the first time, right. They don’t know. Your job is to be curious and to your point earlier, warm and open and mind that tone. Right? Like, part of curiosity is managing reactions. Right. Ask a really good question, really deeply listen, and then make sure that you’re on the same page through clarifying questions.

[00:53:19] Heather: Yes.

[00:53:21] Rachael: Yes.

[00:53:21] Heather: It’s very simple.

[00:53:22] Rachael: It really is.

[00:53:23] Heather: You can actually, instead of making an assumption, figure out what was going on, target the issue and help them with that.

[00:53:30] Rachael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:31] Heather: Which means better work product moving forward.

Tip 4: Remember that this is an investment for the long-term.

[00:53:34] Rachael: That is the investment that’s ultimately, like, literally tell people what to do to make your life easier. Giving really good feedback is the most selfish thing you can do.

[00:53:45] Heather: I like that. Well, thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation. Why don’t you tell people before I let you go where they can find you online?

[00:53:54] Rachael: I. Well, you gave it away. I’m on the Internet. You can find me. There we are@fringepd.com. that’s p, like Peter D, like dog. Fringe. Like a jacket. Don’t know why I did it backwards. I am at rachel ringepd.com dot. No matter how you spend, spell Rachel, it will get to me. And I try to be pretty good at responding to my email. We also have a pretty robust presence on LinkedIn, so you can go ahead and follow us over there at fringe professional.

[00:54:23] Heather: Awesome. And I will put all of that in the show notes so that people can find you and reach out should they want and need to. Thank you so much for coming. I think people are going to get a lot out of today’s topic.

[00:54:33] Rachael: Well, thank you for having me. This was delightful.