#232: Content Marketing 101 For Lawyers

Heather: Welcome back to Life & Law. This is your host, Heather Moulder. And today we have a guest I want to introduce you to. Stephanie Grober. She has worked in the digital marketing and communication space for nearly 10 years as the content and public relations manager for Horowitz Agency. She works with a variety of service industry professionals, including corporate and entertainment lawyers and law firms.

Working with law firm clients ranging from Big Law to Boutique, Stephanie and the Horowitz team design and execute content and communication strategies that generate measurable bottom-line growth. She knows that becoming a leading authority in your field requires more than keeping your head down and grinding out the work – something us attorneys love to stick with but really need to get out of.

And I invited her onto Life and Law to get into Content Marketing 101 and beyond. Welcome Stephanie.

[00:01:56] Stephanie: Thank you so much, Heather. I am super excited to be here.

What Is Content Marketing?

Heather: So let’s start with the super basics, right? So when we say content marketing, what do we mean? What does that mean to you?

[00:02:08] Stephanie: So content is everywhere for lawyers and law firms. Whether you are at a boutique or you’re a solo practitioner or you’re in big Law already. Content marketing is your articles that you may be writing. You may be joining podcasts yourself as a thought leader. You may be presenting at conferences or presenting sessions to clients. You may be receiving awards, submitting nominations. All of that is content. Your social media presence is content. As an individual attorney or on behalf of your law firm, that’s content as well. So you know, and today’s age, there’s also video content which is huge. The there’s audio podcasts, like we said, there’s the written word and so most attorneys know it’s surrounding us. And I think the challenge is how do we harness the power of that content for marketing and business development purposes.

[00:03:05] Heather: So when I speak to attorneys who are reticent to get too into the digital space, especially they tend to reference why speak and that’s enough and/or I go off of referrals. Do you ever hear that as a pushback from your, I mean granted your clients, by the time they’re hiring you are probably more in on content marketing, but what would you say to those people? It’s like, well, I deal with referrals, I mostly network and I speak. So I don’t need to worry about all this other stuff.

[00:03:37] Stephanie: Absolutely. Every lawyer’s practice is different.

We cover more than 35 practice areas. So we hear from a lot of individuals about the unique ways that they might market themselves.

But the, the goal is always to maximize everything that you are currently doing and to leverage it. So if you’re speaking at conferences, but you’re not promoting them on social media, or your firm is not promoting them, you’re not repurposing some of the topics, you’re missing opportunities to generate more exposure. So it’s not that we want to force attorneys to do extra work, but we want to leverage what they’re already doing and then maximize the potential of it.

And each approach is going to be unique. So speaking is great. If you’re in a referral-based business, that’s great too. But there still might be ways to amplify your reach. And you know, if someone is referring you to somebody that they know, a quick Google search, it would be great if they turn up your name in a high profile article publication just to reinforce that referral.

Using LinkedIn For Content Marketing (& Networking)

[00:04:42] Heather: Or even on LinkedIn, like even if you’re not doing the high-profile stuff yet or have decided not to do it.

I, I always tell like, why not put some of this stuff if you’re speaking, why not repurpose some of the things you’re putting out there in, in your speeches into LinkedIn? Because LinkedIn shows up on those searches. And LinkedIn I have found, is a definitive vetting tool for a lot of people in places when they are looking at attorneys, of course they go to your website, but is like stodgy and boring. Let’s be honest. It’s basically just a list of all the achievements you’ve had, the education you’ve had, maybe a deal list or something like that, case list, that kind of a thing. But there’s nothing there that gives them any perspective into how you show up with clients, what your style or approach is and speaking actually can do that. And then taking what you do and then putting it out on LinkedIn would be very helpful because not everybody’s going to attend that speech.

[00:05:45] Stephanie: Absolutely. So LinkedIn is your digital property. Just like you aren’t going to let your house fall into disrepair in the neighborhood, you don’t want to let your LinkedIn just sort of languish, unupdated or not even in existence. You know, there are some folks I meet with and they don’t even have a LinkedIn yet. I love LinkedIn. And just like you said, you know, a law firm website, your bio there, it may not speak to the person reading it, it may not jump out at them. It can be hard to extract exactly what you do unless the bio has been really, really well written. So LinkedIn is sort of your second chance to humanize the work that you’re doing and speak directly to a person. And we know that whether you’re, you know, a plaintiff’s attorney or you’re working with corporations, there’s still a person making the decision to hire you, right? So absolutely have your LinkedIn make sure your LinkedIn is updated. And you know, even just seeing that somebody is active, whether it’s once a month, once a week, once a day, shows them that there’s a real person behind that LinkedIn account and gives them a little bit more of a feel for who you are. And again, leveraging what you’re already doing.

If you’re a at a high profile conference, they may have posted about your speaking engagement, they may have shared photos. You, you can reshare that stuff with a few of your own words and just reinforce how you can help people.

[00:07:08] Heather: You and I are so aligned on this and I really wish more attorneys would at least do some LinkedIn because everybody goes there to look you up, everybody goes there, right? So then they can get a better idea of who you are, what you do. And you’re right, most, most bios, most pages on the law firm website that have you on there are not very helpful in, you know, figuring out what does this person really do and how can they help me. So, and you’re right, bios can be better written. But even then it’s kind of hard. But if you have somewhere where somebody can go and there’s information on there, right, there’s posts, maybe let’s say you post a couple times a month and that’s it, it’s still helpful. They can go read through and go, oh, now I get what they do and I can see myself in there and I can see how they can help me. It just makes it more relatable to the human being who’s looking this up and helping to make that decision.

Stephanie: Yes, the law is, is so technical and so complex and it’s hard to distill that just in a law firm bio. And you know, you can’t necessarily fit everything that you do, but LinkedIn can be your value proposition. You know, you can once a month say, I just helped somebody with this problem and then you hope that the person reading it is going to have that same problem. Be like, oh, wow. And then the light bulb goes off. The this is who I need to hire.

When To Niche (and Not to Niche)

[00:08:28] Heather: Oh, I have a question about that. That, that actually leads me to something that I get a lot of pushback on. Well, I don’t want to get too niche in what I’m writing about. What are your thoughts about that? Because I argue with clients all the time about you got to pick something more specific. It can’t stay in the general zone because then it’s not gonna connect with anyone. Nobody’s gonna see themselves in that problem. And funny enough, I found that even when you get more specific, if that specific thing hasn’t, doesn’t relate to a particular person either, they’re going to go past it and that’s totally fine. But a lot of times it actually spurs other, other thinking around, oh, but this is similar too.

And then they can see themselves within it anyway. So what are your thoughts about that?

[00:09:17] Stephanie: Yeah, that’s, that’s something we encounter a lot.

Generalist versus specialist. How do I go to market myself? How do I present myself? So, you know, there’s a couple of ways that we think about that.

Like you said, answering a specific question or helping solve a specific problem in your content.

Right now we’re in the age of geo generative optimization. Generative search engine optimization. So this, the AI and the search engines function like people do when they’re looking for an answer to a question. And so they prioritize that content. So that’s a good way actually to set up to answer a specific question.

And then there’s not really a concern with being too niche because you should think of content marketing as a comprehensive strategy that’s always ongoing. So just because you write about one problem, one specific issue, doesn’t mean that that’s the only thing you’re ever going to talk about. You can do that all year long over the course of a decade in your career. So you’re going to have so many opportunities. Right. I, I like to tell people it’s not one and done.

Especially because we do a lot of public relations as part of content marketing, meaning attorneys. We help secure opportunities for them to speak to the media.

So if the media is looking into one specific story and you comment on it, that doesn’t mean that is the only thing that you can comment on in your life. You’re going to have so many opportunities. But take that opportunity, start getting your name out there, and then we build momentum from that. Lawyers, a lot of times will overthink certain opportunities, like you’re saying.

Yeah, I think it goes with the profession. And so folks who are, you know, just willing to think about a story or an issue or question from a reporter and give their two cents can be easier to work with. And, you know, they’re not overthinking it. Whereas some folks are like, I’m not the preeminent expert in this area in the countries, so I’m, I’m nervous to weigh in. That’s okay. Right? People reading aren’t looking for the definitive solution or, or answer. They’re just looking for commentary and insight.

[00:11:29] Heather: That’s interesting. So one of the things, and I think where you come in, like, there’s the niching when it comes into the content pillars, that maybe if you’re writing consistently, you want to stick within at least a certain realm so that people can identify you as, oh, this is the attorney who, what do you do? Who do you help? How do you help them? And if you stay too general or if you are too general, I do think it tends to backfire.

That being said, I agree. When it comes to the PR strategy, it doesn’t mean you can’t be a little more general when you are doing that, like reaching out to reports. Because reporters, they, they, they need what they need in that moment, and it’s very specific to the story they’re writing. And your expertise can be credible for a whole host of issues, not just the things you specifically write about. So I do think there’s a differentiation there. Would you agree?

Writing Articles vs. Public Relations (Quotes)

[00:12:26] Stephanie: Absolutely. Yeah. You know, article writing is different than doing pr.

And some folks may find that they like to write articles. Some, you know, it’s. I, I started my career working with accountants who aren’t writing as much as attorneys are. So it’s interesting to see the differences in how they approach writing. Some attorneys love to write. Um, some attorneys still, you know, struggle with writing an article for a more popular audience, not just a legal or scholarly audience. So, yeah, you know, you have to find what works for you. Um, but yes, articles can absolutely be specific, but you know, to.

You have to think about where’s the article going to live? Is it just for my law firm’s website? In which case, sure, it can be super, super specific. And that might help, you know, search engine optimization, generative engine optimization. If we want to place that article in an outlet, a publication, then we’re going to have to think, does this apply enough to the audience? So we don’t want to exclude readership because it’s such a narrow topic. And that’s where you just need to do your research, think about who’s reading a certain publication, and is this going to be the right fit before we pitch that article?

When NOT to Write the Article (or Give PR)

[00:13:38] Heather: Absolutely. And I would just say this sometimes, though, and this is an opinion I have that you may or may not share.

Sometimes it doesn’t make sense to write the article if it’s not because you want to make sure, like, what’s the purpose? What is your end goal if you are not writing to people who are going to hire you, ever, if you are not, or there are different reasons sometimes to write different types of articles for different publications, that is not going to get you immediate business. Most of these are not going to get you immediate business. But if it makes no sense for the practice you’re ultimately trying to grow, then perhaps say, no, you do want to make sure it makes sense.

And I learned that the hard way. Well, it’s not that I learned it the hard way. It’s when I started my blog a million years ago, it was a very different blog. And then of course, I transformed the website over.

And it’s still funny to me, you know, for so long, how some of those articles got huge SEO, but they had nothing to do with where my business kind of moved. So I ultimately later ended up removing them because it was just a lot of traffic for things that made no difference for what I do now and really made no sense.

So I, I had to kind of like edit, self edit and change some things to make it work for, you know, so that people weren’t confused with what I put out there.

But, you know, so you definitely want to think about that. But that’s honestly why people like you exist, to help people figure out what makes sense for me, what doesn’t. Because my guess is you working, you know, you tailor strategies very specifically to the individuals and their practice and what they want to gain out of what they’re doing with you, correct?

[00:15:19] Stephanie: Absolutely. So, you know, I was in-house. I approach my role still. I feel like I’m in-house for all of the clients we work with. We are sort of an extension of in house marketing teams for the big law firms that we serve. We are the marketing team for some of the boutiques that we work with. But marketing, content marketing, it always has to be tied into an overall strategy. So whether that’s once a year, you sit down and say, where’s the growth of my practice? Who are the best prospects? How do I reach them? Then that’s what our content strategy is going to do. So you have to have that process in place to make sure everything is aligning and working in the right direction again, because otherwise, you know what, why are you going to talk about topic Z when you’re trying to get prospects for topic A? So we want, we are really focused on growth and results, revenue growth. And like you said, one article is not always, it’s not always a one to one new client.

Articles can bring new clients. We do see that in the, in the attorneys that we work with, that they’re like, we just published this thing, I got a phone call the next day and that’s amazing.

But knowing that that doesn’t always happen. That’s where you want that alignment in your content marketing strategy, your overall marketing and business development strategy. It’s really, what are the best clients for me today? How is my book of business looking?

Which clients are the most profitable or the best for me and my firm? And then where do I see the most opportunity? And sometimes those opportunity areas are what we go after with the content marketing. So we help attorneys pivot sometimes. If they say, you know, I just started getting some clients in this area, I’m not really known in that area yet, but I’d like to keep growing there. Awesome. Then that’s our goal, to start publishing content, get recognition in that area. So, so it becomes another feature and facet of the practice.

Becoming A Thought Leader (& the Mindset You Need)

[00:17:13] Heather: And that’s where thought leadership comes into play, where we, we in the, the, you know, the marketing lingo, you want to be a thought leader and that’s really what you’re talking about there. So when you’re trying to pivot or you’re trying to really establish that you are credible, you are an expert in a particular area, that’s what you’re really building towards, is to become a quote unquote thought leader.

And explain to me how you guys see that. Because there’s two things that I see going on a lot that I know you have to see all the time.

Well, I haven’t been doing this long enough. Well, I don’t have enough credibility. It’s like, no, you’re supposed to do this so that you can create the credibility. But we lawyers want to be the quote, unquote, experts before we do all of that.

And so why don’t you speak to that a little bit to allay some of those fears, number one. And then two, how do you help your clients, you know, become thought leaders in areas where they’re pivoting or where they may not have as much experience as some others?

[00:18:16] Stephanie: Sometimes it’s a little bit of fake it till you make it, if you, if you have the knowledge. But, you know, a lot of folks, when they approach PR and marketing at various points in their career, they’re not confident. And we see that a lot. And it just depends on the individual, too. And like I said, this is why content marketing, public relations, overall marketing is so unique to each individual attorney and how they approach it. But people may not be confident, okay, I had five matters in this practice area that I handled in the past year, but that doesn’t make me an expert. Well, guess what? It means you have a lot more experience than a lot of people, and that experience is really valuable. So we’re going to start putting you out there. We’re going to see if we can share that experience. And then hopefully, the more that they do it and they have opportunities, that confidence will build. And then all of a sudden they realize I am a thought leader. And, you know, speaking with the media, taking those opportunities, that can be helpful. I think the reporter feedback sometimes is, wow, this is hugely helpful for my story. Reporters aren’t lawyers, right? Sometimes. Sometimes they are, but so that feedback can be a real confidence builder. And then, you know, readership of some of these articles, we do get data and insights into readership and views and stats like that. So that can also be a way just to help validate that somebody is becoming a thought leader. There are also some lightning in the bottle instances that we’ve had happen where overnight somebody is just like, I want to talk about this.

I think I have it. And a story breaks, and if you get into that first big news story, you might have 10 reporters calling you the next day for their coverage. Because remember, you know, there’s hundreds of news organizations in the world, and they’re all going to cover a breaking news story.

And so that is sort of overnight how we can propel thought leaders to the forefront of a national conversation. And, you know, that can Be a little scary. You have to be ready for it. But that’s why it’s good to practice. When you are starting to integrate content and public relations marketing into your overall business development goals, get that practice in. Take some media opportunities on topics that maybe aren’t breaking first. Feel comfortable speaking to the press or writing comments.

So that way, when the big story does come, you’re ready for the overnight success.

[00:20:42] Heather: And that’s really great advice. And I would add this, so something I’ve noted throughout my legal career and now as a coach to lawyers that I find really interesting.

Most lawyers are willing to take on clients and matters that they may not have extensive experience in, but they know, okay, I know enough and I know enough to know how to go ask for assistance and help. And I, you know, I can, I can do this.

And it’s how we pivot and it’s how we expand our practices.

And yet they don’t seem to be okay with doing that in public.

It feels like that it’s behind the scenes. So I try to help them when they’re getting into that space of, okay, all you have to do is think about who, who is the client that you’re talking to here about this issue. What would you say to them that helps them kind of get back into that, okay, I can do this, it’s okay.

And the fact of the matter is, when you’re doing PR especially and you’re giving quotes or you’re getting a little blurb in an article for that’s written by someone else, they are not asking you the nitty, gritty, intricate details. They are asking the big picture, top of the line stuff that you can’t answer.

[00:21:56] Stephanie: Exactly. Yeah. You know, the, you know, one article is not going to go into the variations across 50 states in an area of law. It’s going to be, you know, generally, how does this play out? And sometimes you caveat by saying, you know, in California where I practice, or in New York where I practice, things like that. But that’s a great way to think about it. The, the 50, 000 foot perspective.

Understanding SEO vs. GEO

Heather: Absolutely. Okay, so you’ve mentioned both of these terms, but already, and I want to get into the differentiation of what we mean to ensure everybody is on board. And also ask your opinion on SEO, like where that’s going. But so you mentioned SEO and you’ve mentioned geo. Can you differentiate for people what those two things are?

[00:22:42] Stephanie: Yeah. So search engine optimization, SEO is something I think all marketers are familiar with at this point and maybe practitioners too, depending on how plugged in they are to marketing. That was how Google would return your website in a search.

And for SEO purposes. And we’ve been doing this for 10 plus years, you wanted your website content to be keyword rich so that when somebody is, you know, searching for a personal injury attorney in New York, your website would come up. And so we had strategies to help with that.

GEO is Generative Engine Optimization. And what that is is the AI search results that we’re getting now. When we search something and AI gives us a little paragraph about it does some of the work for us, that’s geo. Now where is AI getting that information is the most interesting part for attorneys today.

Yes, it’s scanning your website content. It’s also scanning media.

It’s also scanning in some cases user forums. So you now have to be in more places.

And the thinking is if I plug in the best personal injury attorney in New York again, I’ll just use that as an example.

Who is AI going to tell me is the best personal injury attorney in New York in that summary and how do I get into that? Because that is driving client growth. People are hiring attorneys based on generative engine optimization, AI search results.

So your website content has to be up to date, have the keywords. You also will go very, very far if you are being quoted in high profile media outlets. And some of them are actually more AI friendly than others.

And there’s a lot of schools of thought evolving around which outlets to be in right now. But it’s important that you are in the media. So there’s that second layer of sort of AI scanning and seeing that content and then telling the person doing the search, you’re the person they need.

When SEO Makes Sense (& Doesn’t)

[00:24:56] Heather: So I would like to know how you guys are seeing SEO change without the GEO? Like let’s say somebody isn’t searching on AI because there’s a lot of people out there who still aren’t using. More and more people are using. We’ll get into that in a minute. But let’s assume somebody’s just doing a regular Google search.

Something that it’s just so obvious now is there’s a lot more sponsored stuff. People are paying that’s up top. Like it’s a lot harder it seems like.

To use the old school SEO methods to get in that first page and certainly at the top of the first page because the top is all paid it seems on these things. So what are your thoughts about how to best utilize SEO and what’s changed?

Stephanie: SEO is very competitive and again, this is where Your individual practice or your firm is going to define your strategy. Because in some practice areas it can cost a lot of money each month to get in the first page of search results and it’s going to be sponsored through ads. And then again, there’s some folks who, like we said, their business is referral based and they are not interested in being in the first page. Folks aren’t finding them by Google. So first you need to understand is that, is that how your prospective clients are finding you? Does it matter to you if you come up high in the Google search results? If so, you’re going to take a targeted strategy. Your website, the entire design of your website has to be optimized. The way you set up individual pages in your website, the way you lay out content, the content you add to the website on a regular basis, that’s an SEO strategy, but it’s not the only marketing strategy. Again, so if that’s not the main driver of new business for you, then don’t overlook the other digital properties. Like we’re saying, have your social Pages, namely your LinkedIn, be getting out there where folks might see you appear in the publications that your clients or prospective clients will be reading. Those are also great ways to maximize digital opportunities.

How GEO Works

[00:27:04] Heather: And then how do you get into how GEO, you know, makes a difference? Because GEO is looking at your website. That’s part of it, but obviously there’s more to it than that. And I can attest that I have not done a lot to opt. I used to do SEO like crazy and then I found it just didn’t really help me that much, regardless because lawyers weren’t really looking up the way I, you know, like if a lawyer’s looking for me, they’re mostly looking on places like LinkedIn.

They’re, you know, asking other people, they’re, they’re finding me in different ways. They weren’t finding me through traditional Google searches and if they were finding me through, through traditional Google searches, they were very niche specific which did find me because there’s not a lot of mes out there, right?

So that was very helpful. So the blog was not doing much for me and I figured that out and started going towards the podcast. So the podcast does send a lot of people my way, but I have will note that a lot more people over the last couple of months because I always ask people how did you find me? Or searching on chat GPT and they’re finding me that way. I’m showing up like crazy and I’m sure it’s because I’m on LinkedIn prolifically. I have this podcast, I guessed on other podcasts. I have some articles out there on other publications.

So talk about how that’s changing everything for people.

[00:28:28] Stephanie: Yeah, that is changing the game. So. And this is all evolving as we sit here today.

But the fact that you are out there publicly, your podcast is a great content piece. You know, there’s so much, so many episodes of your podcast. So that’s content rich. Your website, your articles, that’s all being scoured by AI and then repackaged and returned to an end user who is searching each. Each AI engine is going to approach this differently. But there’s been some reports that say, you know, 30% of consideration by AI is top tier media outlets. And so that’s why you want to be in those awards are becoming big.

So making sure you’re in the rankings, whether it’s the legal rankings or regional rankings, those are becoming really important for GEO because they’re an easy thing to scan and say, here’s the 10 best practice area lawyers in your state.

So those are an important part of GEO strategy today.

And then we approach it, like I said, by getting in the media outlets and being really thoughtful and strategic about how our clients are quoted, making sure that their practice area is appearing next to their name in a very natural way that folks would search for it, getting their firm name in there, because AI is absorbing all of that.

So, you know, AI is sometimes not very smart for being artificial intelligence. We know it can be wrong. Right. So we need to train it to return exactly what we want it to return. And that’s how we have to be really specific and thoughtful about the content that we put out there.

Digital Marketing Pillars (To Be Found)

[00:30:18] Heather: Okay, so you talked about this already a little bit, but I want to go a little deeper into, I think you call them your content marketing pillars.

Obviously, articles are like writing, getting stuff out there, pr, where you’re getting quoted or getting blurbs in other articles, both of those, I think are more obvious to people.

Awards & Nominations (Matter More Than Ever)

But I find the awards piece interesting. Like really interesting. And part of the reason why I find it interesting is I come from big law, Big law. Lawyers and law firms have forever tried to get their people in front of every list, every whatever, into whatever awards they can. It’s a big.

And for years a lot of lawyers have argued this is a waste of time because you didn’t get a lot out of it. And at least it seems like you didn’t get a lot of it. And I actually think you didn’t. And it was A lot. And I mean a lot of time spent, a lot of man hours spent on that. But this, this whole like, AI and the way it looks at stuff seems to argue otherwise. At least now that these awards are becoming much more important and we do need to be spending more time on these things. So can we talk about that just a little bit more?

[00:31:32] Stephanie: Yes. And coming from big law, right, you’re probably experiencing, you know, the chambers season every year and being asked for your matters and your referrals. And that is a lot of work.

And that’s, you know, people argue, well, is the layperson, the end user, the client going to look at my chambers ranking or is it, are we all just talking to ourselves as lawyers? And that’s probably a discussion for another day. But there are so many awards and rankings beyond that, we, we submit dozens of chambers nominations each year for clients still. We’d love to see them move up the rankings. But then there’s also, you know, the best practice area attorneys in your city and something like that is really AI friendly. And so yes, there is a time component of needing to craft a nomination. I love awards for this reason. If you are somebody, say you’re not at a big law firm or you know, you’re, you are in big law, but there’s so many people in your practice, you’re not getting a ton of marketing attention. Right. Being selected for one honor a year is, is a great goal. And then not only do you have that honor, it lives online, it’s searchable by AI, but you can promote it your LinkedIn. So this is where the strategy comes together. Your LinkedIn that you have your page, it’s updated and developed, you get an award, it’s online, and you share it with your network and they’re gonna love it. Those posts always do well because people want to celebrate you and your success.

So I am a huge fan of awards. There are awards and rankings for attorneys at every stage of their career. Whether they are 40 under 40, rising stars, mid level point of their career, or senior states people. There are awards for all of it. There are awards by your practice area, by the industries you serve, which again can be huge if you’re trying to crack into maybe a new industry or you’re pivoting your practice and then like I said, also your region, your city, your state.

So we never overlook those. We submit our clients for hundreds in total of awards each year. And they are playing a big role in generative engine optimization.

[00:33:45] Heather: Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I do, I’ve Been part of those conversations around, is this worth it? Especially with the Chambers, because of how much work it is. But I will say I think especially now, it’s probably more important that you go ahead and do it because Chambers is considered incredibly impressive. It’s a big deal.

And if you can get in those awards and get on those lists, then I do think the AI would take that into account. And then in addition to, there are other opportunities. So don’t just do that.

Make sure you’re also up for other opportunities. And you know, Big Law has these marketing departments that can do a lot of the work for you. And if you’re not part of Big Law, there are people like you who can do a lot of this too, and help guide you and help take you through each step and, and do a lot of the legwork so that you’re not spending quite as much time on it.

[00:34:40] Stephanie: Absolutely, yes. A Chambers nomination submission is huge. But again, there are strategic ways to present your submission. And so that’s what we bring to a lot of our firms who are just like, oh my goodness, this is so much work, like the whole thing. And we’re like, okay, here’s the most important area focus here for right now. You know, compiling 20 important cases from the year and writing a summary of each can seem so daunting and we can make it manageable.

And so that’s where I think we help a lot. But not every nomination is going to be like Chambers. Sometimes it’s a 750 word submission about why you are great in your field. And so writing those.

I love doing it because I’m in professional services communications.

And again, it’s an area where people maybe aren’t so confident. We have folks say, really? Do you really think I could get this? And we’re like, absolutely. You just have to kind of back out and think about the impact that you’re having on behalf of your clients. And that’s always something worth celebrating. There is always a story to tell there, and so we want to tell that story in a compelling way.

Getting Outside Help

[00:35:55] Heather: One of the things I will say is a lot of law firms want to rely on their marketing professionals solely.

And that’s great for certain things, but there’s usually not enough of them to deal with everyone. And so sometimes it makes sense to get external help for these things too.

[00:36:11] Stephanie: Absolutely, yes. Like I said, having been in house, you never feel like you have enough resources.

You know, the marketing teams are always small and spread thin because you get involved in everything. Maybe you have communications folks, maybe you don’t. Depending on the size of your firm, even if you do, they might be covering hundreds of attorneys. So we definitely assist existing marketing departments in that fashion or firms that don’t have marketing. I will say, you know, one obstacle for attorneys when they’re thinking about award submissions is that they may be thinking of the really spammy type awards that they get in their inbox. And those do exist, and you have to ignore them. They are not what we’re talking about here. You know, if they’re asking you for, for money or it just doesn’t seem legitimate. Trust your instincts. No, thank you. But there are legitimate rankings. A great thing to do is look at your competitors in, in your practice area or industry, see where they’re showing up. Maybe a bigger firm is in more awards that can give you some ideas.

So we want to make sure we’re focused on the legitimate rankings and awards, but absolutely worth it. Get some help if it’s not, you know, coming naturally to you. And just read a little bit how others have presented themselves who’ve won the award in the past.

[00:37:33] Heather: Yes.

One thing I would note too, before moving on to the next topic is having been in big law and you’ve probably experienced this, given that you were in house, there are only so many people and there are so many attorneys, and unfortunately they have to prioritize.

So they may not be able to prioritize you.

And that means you, the individual, if you want to do this and you want to get out there, more might need to seek out assistance on your own. There are marketing budgets for this. You can work your, you know, you can get sometimes money towards that, but you’ve got to be proactive and you’ve got to make the argument. So don’t think that just because you’re not being prioritized that you have no chance.

There are people out there who can help.

[00:38:22] Stephanie: Exactly right. If there are a hundred attorneys in your practice group and there are two, three, four, maybe five marketing people covering the practice group, it’s going to be difficult for everybody to get the same level of focused attention.

Advocate for yourself. Talk to your marketing team, if they are there, and say, you know, I want to be more involved. How can I work with you guys? You have to understand the entire strategy from the top down. They may have already thought this through.

And the more you say, I want to be involved, the better it’s going to be for you. And if it’s simply a resource issue. Exactly. You know, partner with an external agency or writer who can assist which we do over and over. We have a lot of firms and individuals come to us specifically to get on lists.

There are some very, very high profile lists that we help clients get on that absolutely have an impact on their business. And so that is the driver of them coming to us. For others, it’s just a part of the work that we do for them.

So don’t rule it out.

Start with marketing and a conversation there, if you have the marketing team and then figure out what the next steps need to be.

Yes.

[00:39:37] Heather: And, you know, sometimes it’s seed planting because they don’t know that you prioritize this. And they’ve already prioritized who they need to support this year because they knew they were really into it. But you’ve planted the succeed and you can keep up that conversation so that next year they can really turn their attention to you as well. And in the meantime, you can reach out to people like Stephanie to see, okay, could you help me with this and find out if it works for your, you know, what you’re able and willing to invest? So don’t just rule it out. I think a lot of times attorneys think, well, nobody’s prioritizing me, so this is never going to happen. No, no, no. Advocate for yourself like you do for your clients.

Make the argument, talk to people, get, make sure they understand what you want and why understand what they’re working towards as well. Because there’s a larger goal and then you know how to kind of like position yourself within that larger goal. By the way, there’s strategy involved and then there are other people who can, who can assist you. So don’t be afraid to reach out.

[00:40:38] Stephanie: So, yes, not making it this year. Don’t forget, these awards come up every single year. So they’re going to need to submit somebody next year and it’s not going to be the same people they submitted this year. And so, you know, it can feel like, oh, my God, I didn’t make it in, I missed this award. That’s it for me. Trust me, that nomination period is going to open right back up again for the next year, and that’s going to be your shot.

Heather: And your career is long-term, so it’s okay.

Stephanie: Yeah.

Common Stumbling Blocks When It Comes to Attorney Content Marketing

[00:41:06] Heather: Okay. So before I let you go, I want to know, we’ve talked about pr. We’ve talked about working with reporters and getting quotes.

What are some, I would say, stumbling blocks or roadblocks that you tend to see that you would like to address with attorneys? Whether it’s a mindset thing, whether it’s Their approach to things.

I know I see certain things, but I’m sure you do even more so. So what are like your top couple that you would you think people need to know if they’re thinking of doing this before getting started?

[00:41:40] Stephanie: Yeah. You have to want to be doing marketing if you’re going to engage in an agency like we are or even just with your marketing folks. If you’re going to have that conversation and say I want, I want to get this attention and I want to get this emphasis and coverage of myself.

Great point to start. But you’re going to have to participate. So you’re going to have to give as much as you get sometimes. Right. Meaning ideas, bringing new ideas to the table, watching conversations, watching what’s coming out in relevant publications, things that your clients are bringing to you. That is what we crave as marketers. If we know what your clients are asking you, that’s how we can market you in the press article, thought leadership. Right. So that stuff is key when it comes to public relations if you are going to focus on pr. And that’s, that’s really where a specialized agency is huge. Because I can tell you that your in house marketing team does not have the resources to spend 24 hours a day pitching you to the media and coordinating and dealing with reporters and other folks. So if you’re going to seek out PR opportunities, a few things to keep in mind.

There is always a little bit of inherent risk in pr. We are managing reporters, the media, breaking news story deadlines, newsrooms that are consolidating and changing overnight. So not, you know, it’s not always going to be easy, it’s not always going to yield a result. If you talk to a reporter and you have to accept, accept that. And I, I am so appreciative of clients who take that journey with us and, and don’t let it fluster them. If one opportunity doesn’t go according to plan. You know, you might spend 20 minutes on the phone with a reporter and, and they use one sentence in their article and that can be frustrating sometimes. But again you got to focus on the, the long term big picture. That’s one placement you got, you’re going to get others and that’s going to create a momentum. So that’s just something to sort of help prepare your mindset. At the start of doing pr, you got to sort of understand how it works. It moves fast, can’t always control it. There’s a lot of moving pieces. And then I just like for folks to keep an open Mind, I think again about areas where they could contribute, where they may be able to comment that, you know, wouldn’t be an immediate match in their minds, but it could still support their practice.

We all know the saying all press is good press. And as PR people, we do think that. Right. We don’t want to have you commenting on something that has absolutely no correlation to your practice. That’s not strategic. But if it’s complementary in a way, great, and it’s not going to harm you. Now we legal priority, you know, there are conflicts to vet. You were in big law, you know how many clients the firm had. There are so many layers of approval and clearance that we will get first because we never want to, to put a firm or an attorney in a bad position professionally, ethically, anything like that. But if it’s just a matter of, well, this isn’t exactly my practice area, but it could be complementary because of the industry or the, or the publication being great, keep an open mind. It could be worthwhile.

[00:45:02] Heather: Do you ever find that attorneys have trouble sometimes with answering the questions they have, at least initially when they get started, because they think too technical, they get into the specifics. It’s like they know too much. Right. The curse of knowledge. And they, they, they need to sometimes like take a step up and, and think a little bit big picture. Because that is really what they’re looking for.

Stephanie: Yes, absolutely there is. Again, you’re in a highly technical field, but the average reader is not a lawyer and is not looking for a recital of the exact law and the, and the publication is looking for a sound bite. So insofar as you can keep that in mind, it is important. Now, attorneys are really valued by the media because you have education, credentials, experience that very few people have. And so they do look to you for insight of very high quality. And so you don’t have to dumb down your approach, but do just keep in mind who you’re speaking to, I think, and who the piece is going to reach. And that’s whether it’s the New York Times or your regional business journal.

That could differ a little bit. So thinking about the audience is really helpful.

Heather: Also, the more you do it, the better you get at it and the more you understand what they’re really looking for when certain questions are asked.

[00:46:33] Stephanie: Yeah, exactly. You have to practice. And so again, PR is long term. We’re going on a journey. And so if the first opportunity offered to you is for a smaller publication and you’re like, is this worth it? Yes. Get some practice. See how Reporters speak to you, see how they present their questions. You never have to waver on your values and you never, definitely never answer something that you don’t want to answer. That’s not anything that we push clients to do. Even if it seems like a reporter is looking for a specific answer, if that’s not what you’re giving, that’s not what you’re giving, that’s fine. But that’s why you have to get out there. And you may find that, you know, you, you like speaking to reporters on the phone or you don’t and you prefer written commentary. Or you may find that you don’t get the level of control that you want in that kind of opportunity when somebody else is writing an article and you yourself want to write an article. So you have complete narrative control. These are all reasons why you have to just try different opportunities.

Maybe none of those appeal to you. And you only like presenting at conferences and that’s okay too. And then we, we work on leveraging that. Right? So it’s a journey that we take with each client and we find what works best for them and for their practice and for their firm.

[00:47:56] Heather: Thank you so much for coming today. I think a lot of attorneys are going to find this very helpful and hopefully it will get them onto a journey into considering becoming a thought leader, getting more content out there and considering doing some priority placement. So maybe they’ll even start reaching out to you. If they want to reach out to you. Where can they find you?

Stephanie: LinkedIn. Let’s connect on LinkedIn. I hope you have one. That’s a great place. Our website is horowitzagency.com you can always find us there too.

Heather: Awesome. And I will put links to you specifically on LinkedIn and then your website, the company’s website in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Stephanie: Thank you, Heather. It was awesome.