#237: For the Lawyer Dads Who Want To Be Good Lawyers & Fathers

Heather: Welcome back to Life & Law. This is your host, Heather Moulder. Today I want to introduce you to Matthew Korn. Matthew is a labor and employment partner with Fisher Phillips and the founder of Dad Esquire, a free online community for lawyer dads who get what it's like to build a Lego set at night and brief a case before sunrise.

Lawyer Dads provides a rare space for lawyer dads to connect, laugh, get real and trade insights on the balancing act of legal life and fatherhood. Today's episode is for the lawyer dads out there who want to know how to avoid burnout and be a good lawyer and parent in today's busy legal landscape. And of course, it's also for all the lawyer moms out there because I'm sure that everybody is going to benefit from this conversation. Welcome, Matthew.

[00:01:50] Matthew: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

About Matthew Korn

Heather: So why don't we quickly just set the background for how you even got to where you are now. And before we dive into the the Dad's Esquire, which is the big reason I got you on this, because I gotta say, and you know this, there's not a lot out there for men.

There's not a lot out there for dads specifically. And I'm super excited that there is something now for male attorneys who are dads. But let's talk a little bit about who you are, what you do, what got you here.

[00:02:23] Matthew: Sure. I.

I grew up in upstate New York outside of Rochester, and I decided I wanted to be an attorney at 13. I don't. I still don't. I don't really know why I'm first generation.

Heather: That's funny.

[00:02:39] Matthew: I'm first generation college in my family. So it wasn't like I had a bunch of lawyers in my family that I was saying I want to be like that. I just, that was what I did. I'm a pretty goal-oriented person. So from 13 on I was like, I'm going to be a lawyer. And that's what I decided to do. So went to undergrad, did the traditional poli sci path and learned I really like philosophy. I should have, should have done that instead. But enjoyed, enjoyed the four years in college. That's where I met my wife was at Providence College in Rhode Island.

So for a lot of reasons, college was great.

And then went to law school straight out of college, just went straight through. And while I was in law school, I thought I wanted to be an international lawyer. I thought I wanted to go work at the UN or do something like that. And then I took my first international law class and I was like, wow, this is not for me. I like to say I'm an extreme extrovert. I love talking to people, meeting people. And I. The reviewing treaties and contracts was not what I wanted to be doing. So started taking employment law classes. And I loved it from day one. Just really enjoyed learning about employment law.

Knew that was what I wanted to do after my second year, did some externships, really enjoyed them. And then when I graduated, I graduated in 2010, probably the worst year for lawyers to ever graduate law school. So I graduated Georgetown in 2010 and didn't have a job offer until after I took New York bar.

And so that was a stressful time. 10 applications a day while studying for the bar is not something I wish on anyone else. But I found a job at Department of Labor and that was not where I planned to go work when I graduated law school.

But I went and I litigated health and safety cases for about 15 months. But it was awesome. I mean I had, I was like a Prosecutor. I had 200 cases. I took 40, took and defended 40 depositions. My first year of practice had a bench trial with experts. I mean, all the experiences that like most first year lawyers don't get, I got in my first year.

So it was a terrific job. Wanted to do more than just health and safety. So I found a job at Fisher Phillips in Columbia, South Carolina, which was a city that I'd never visited until got the call to come down for an interview. And I had also just gotten married. We moved about a month and a half after we got married. To wow.

And so I said, can I bring my brand new wife also in case you offer me the job? I want to make sure she likes the city. And we really liked Columbia. And so here. Here we are 15 years later in Columbia, South Carolina, and I still work at Fisher Phillips and do employment law. Been here the whole time, except for a small break when I went in house. I went to a gold mine.

And people say, what is what? What kind of gold mine? Like, what. What were they doing? Well, we were making actual gold. It was a. It was a real gold mine. And I was there for the construction of a $400 million processing plant. It was really cool. Got to hold the first gold bars. But once construction was over, they didn't really need in house lawyers. They outsourced legal. So I ended up being part of a layoff right after. It was the day I got back from parental leave with my second child.

[00:05:55] Heather: So you've had an interesting.

You graduated at the quote, unquote, wrong time, and then you got to do some really cool stuff there. But the moment you get back from parental aid, oops, laying you off because there's no place for you anymore. I mean, those are two pretty stressful events.

The Thing We All Fear: Burnout

[00:06:11] Matthew: Yeah, definitely. Part of. Part of the reason I went in house, I was. I was at my firm for about three years.

Our first son, Matthew Jr. We call him M.J. was born in 2014, and my wife decided she wanted to stay home with him. And so, so I was building a practice. I was traveling a lot. Health and safety. I was doing health and safety on the defense side, and I was going to conferences all the time, trying to build a practice, trying to make partner as fast as possible, all the things that you do. And then when I get back from conferences, I'm catching up on billable hours, doing the work.

So about a year after our first son was born, my wife said, I feel like a single mom.

I just never see you. You never see your son. You're never around. You're. And when you are around, you're working or thinking about work. And she wasn't wrong then. That wasn't. It wasn't my firm saying, you got to do all these things. It was my personal kind of ambition. And I knew I needed to make a change. If I was gonna stay married and have kids, I needed to make a change. So that was part of the reason I left and went to the. To the gold mine was I thought, different quality of life. And then about a year and a half after being there, getting back from Parental leave. I was out for two and a half weeks with the birth of our second son.

He was in NICU for a week of that. I actually just posted about that today. It was. It was a really tough experience.

And then I got back and I found out I didn't have a job. So I called my wife. I was like, hey, I'm coming home. And she's like, I thought you just got back. And I said, yep, but I don't have a job anymore. She was. She's great. She was like, that's fine. We'll figure it out. And I was fortunate. My. My law firm took me back and had some really good friends in my office that were like, we're excited to have you back. But I changed the whole scope of my practice. I changed from health and safety, which requires a lot of travel, to wage an hour. I love numbers. I'm a weird. I'm like an odd lawyer that loves math. I know most lawyers are like, I'm a lawyer because I don't like math. I'm the exact opposite. I love math.

So I do a lot of wage an hour. And I also co chair. Ironically, I co chair our reduction in force task force now. So I actually help companies navigate the layoff process that I was part of. And so it gives me some really interesting perspective on that too. And just, you know, I really try to work with companies. It's a tough time for companies to make tough decisions, and I try to bring that human element. You know, these aren't just names on a page. These are people with families and lives, and we need to treat them fairly as much as we can on the way out the door and treat them as well as we can.

[00:08:55] Heather: You left and went in house because you were working too much, you were traveling a lot.

Your wife felt like she was a single mom.

What made you at that time? Because I know a lot of people face this.

What. What went, you know, kind of were you balancing to figure out, okay, I can't stay here, at least not right now, and make it work.

I need to go in house. How did you go through that process?

[00:09:28] Matthew: Yeah, I mean, I.

Looking back at this is back in, like, 2016, like, late 2015, early 2016, when I was making these decisions. And I just. I guess I didn't see the option to change at the time. I was kind of on a track, and I saw this is the track I'm on. Probably could have shifted my practice area earlier and not left. And so I, you know, I think I. I think I just saw this is the path I'm on. Something needs to change, something dramatic needs to change, because hearing those words from your partner is, is not a good feeling. So something needs to change.

I thought, you know, that I think a lot of people that are in private practice, they think the grass is always greener on the in house side.

And it can be, it also can be harder, it can be more work, it can be different. I took a pay cut to go in house, actually, and, and that was tough. That, that was tough in a different way. I had more predictable hours, I had less travel, but I took a pay cut. And, and the work wasn't the same kind of work I enjoyed doing.

And so I learned a lot. I'm glad. You know, I look back at every experience in my life and I'm like, you know, from my first real job at McDonald's to, you know, where I am now, I look at every job, every experience I've had, and I've learned something from those experiences that have made me a better lawyer, have made me a better person.

So, like, I don't, I don't regret going in house.

It did, you know, it put me back a few years from where my trajectory otherwise would have been. Probably saved my marriage, though. And now we have four kids instead of one. So I think that trade off, not a bad trade off.

[00:11:10] Heather: Yeah. So I would, you know, I'm going to just note this. I think that sometimes I think you're right. You could have probably pivoted and done something different from the law firm standpoint. But there's two things that I think are going on when we need that kind of a change. Number one, we can't see it because we're in the middle of the path we are on and we think that's the only path. And it's very hard to see another path. That's number one.

But number two, and this is something I went through early in my career when I realized I needed to switch law firms.

The Need To Break Habits (& Why A Change In Where You Practice Might Be Needed)

Sometimes you need the change to break some of the habits.

Yeah, right around. So it wasn't just that you were traveling, but you mentioned even when I was home, I wasn't even, you know, always there and present. And we have built up habits around how we work and how we live. And sometimes we need a massive change to change to help us change those habits. So perhaps that was part of it. You needed that major switch in order to be able to do those things.

And so that when the opportunity came back up when you were laid off and you realized, okay, want me back.

You were more open, number one, to asking for what you actually wanted from a practice standpoint, to make it work with your life. But you were also open because you had made some of those habit changes, and you were more ready for the ability to make the changes more seamlessly within the private practice.

[00:12:40] Matthew: Yeah, I think, I think that's all absolutely true in my experience.

I think I also had a different maturity level. Becoming a dad, being a dad for longer, making that decision, and then being where I was a year and a half later, I think I came back with a different maturity level than I did when I left. And I think that showed it helped again. It made me better at my private practice job, you know, one, because I kind of understood, you know, a lot of my clients are in house lawyers, and I now understand, you know, when I ask them to send me a bunch of information and sometimes I don't get it as quickly as I would like it. I know that that's not really their fault. They're trying to figure out which person in HR has it and getting. Getting it themselves. Like just little things like that that I now better understand. But I also think just a maturity level and where I was to. When I came back, where I was and, and knowing, you know, more, you're right about, like, I felt. I felt more comfortable saying, hey, I want to be here long term. I don't want to burn out again. So here's what that looks like to me, I think is. Is the conversation we had to have was just, I don't want to. I don't want to come back for another three or four years and then be exactly where I was. I want. I want this to work for the rest of my career, not.

Not for a few more years until I feel too burned out to continue again. So we had to have those discussions. And it was. There were good discussions when I came back and, and have been successful, you know, transitioning the practice and, and growing in that practice.

Assumptions Around Burnout (Often Untrue)

[00:14:18] Heather: So let's talk about burnout for a second. Would you just, like you're using the term now when you were going through it, would you have described yourself as in burnout or close to burnout, or was it something that you started to see later?

[00:14:34] Matthew: No, I. I was pretty burned out and I, I was pretty aware of it at the time. I mean, my wife identified it and put a pin in it, but it wasn't something I was, like, oblivious to at the time. I'm just like, that's like my personality type I'm just a, I'm like the achiever on the Enneagram. I'm gonna keep just working until I collapse or until I make myself sick.

[00:14:58] Heather: Most of us are like that. Most lawyers, yeah, that's right.

[00:15:01] Matthew: Most lawyers, that's how they are. So, like, it was, I, I recognized it. But like, I can push through this. I can just keep going.

You know, there's, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. There's partnership, there's the things that come with partnership, you know, So I, I, I think that I recognized it but just kind of ignored it, if that makes sense. Like I kind of just said, I can, I can keep going.

[00:15:24] Heather: You, it sounds to me, and this is pretty typical, and I think this is really typical of male attorneys.

You assumed, I think what you're saying is, you know, I can push through.

Once I make partner, things will change, the circumstances will get better, so I no longer will be in burnout. So you didn't really see the quite the severity of what burnout was and what was truly going on, although you might have attached burnout to it. It was like, ah, but I can get past it. Which, by the way, isn't true. Guys, once we're really in burnout without a real change in our behavior and sometimes where we are, not much will change.

And you can't just keep pushing through. At some point it gets to a tipping point where you realize you're falling off a cliff.

[00:16:16] Matthew: Yep.

Burnout in Male Attorneys

[00:16:18] Heather: So I would just note that.

Which brings me to this is something.

Burnout is discussed a lot in respect of law firms.

And yes, it's discussed a little bit with male attorneys, but primarily where I see it discussed is with women, because women are talking about it a lot.

Do you find or have you found in the past? I think now maybe it's starting to change that. It's more difficult for, number one, men to identify it because it's just something you do and you push through. And, or two, even when you do, you downplay it. And so you don't, and you don't talk about it as much because I feel like there's not as much support out there for male attorneys when it comes to things like burnout and work life balance.

[00:17:09] Matthew: Yeah, I, I definitely, again, all of those things, I, I, I think that often not every guy, but a lot of men don't feel comfortable opening up about things they're struggling with, whether that's personally or professionally, they want to be viewed as strong.

There's a lot, I think that they that guys internalize and don't want to ask for help. You know, the. There's the fun things, right. Like, I'm driving and, you know, now we all have GPS on our phones, but back in the day when there were maps and things, guys wouldn't ask for directions because, you know, it's a sign of weakness when you have to ask for help. And. And I think that certainly is true in the legal profession. And, you know, we'll. We'll talk about community like that.

In my mind, it always leads to community, where you often feel. It's not just like, I want to be strong, I don't want to ask for help. It's I. You know, you can start feeling I'm the only one that is going through this, and I'm. I'm weird or I'm different. Everybody else seems to be succeeding at a high level.

They're billing more hours than me, or they're, you know, they're doing well. And we don't realize until we start talking about it that we're all feeling the same way.

[00:18:26] Heather: Yeah.

[00:18:27] Matthew: Which is, to me, the biggest benefit of being a community. But you're right. Like, women, I think, are much better at communicating about when they have challenges or struggles. Asking for help talk, just talking through it with other people and just having somebody to listen.

I don't think most guys, that's a natural thing for them to do. I think when they do it, when they. When they open up to somebody, a close friend or somebody else that they've met, and they realize I'm not the only one, that there are other guys that are going through the same things. It's like a light bulb. It was. It was, for me, in one of the first community groups my wife and I were ever in. Was in was at our church, and I saw another couple arguing, and they said they were describing an argument they had about a purse that she had just bought. And they didn't talk about it. They were upset. And I literally, like, I nudged my wife. I was like, we had that same argument yesterday. Same exact argument. And it was just a light bulb for me. Because, like, before that, I just. I guess, like, we would have that argument. I'd be like, oh, this is not. This is just us thing. This isn't something all married couples deal with.

So. Yeah. But I think it's more pronounced for men.

A Generational Shift Among Men & Lawyer Dads (In Work vs. Life)

I do think there's change in that. I think there's also a bit of a generational shift in priority.

And what I see is more guys, millennial and younger who want to be really good lawyers. They don't want to sacrifice their career, but they prioritize their family first.

I use the term working dad online and I think it's kind of interesting. That term is not like working mom's a term that doesn't raise an eyebrow. Working dad for a long time wasn't a concept because it just was assumed dad works.

Now we talk about working dads and it, I think there's just guys that are, that are starting to prioritize that. But then you know, asking questions like, hey, I know the parental leave policy. Our firm has a really generous parental leave policy for, for both moms and dads. But like, what is the real rule? Like what, what is going to raise eyebrows at the office? What are people going to expect?

[00:20:32] Heather: Women don't even think about that anymore. That's right, right. We don't ask about it, we don't think about it.

Guys do.

[00:20:38] Matthew: It's like, what is, what is going to make me viewed as less committed to my job? If I take more than two weeks, is that too much? Like I'm not, you know, I'm not the one having the baby. I don't need more than two weeks, but I want to be around for my kid. I want to support my partner. Those are the kind of conversations we're having in the community. And like guys I think that have kids now are not to say like, no dads in a prior generation had those thoughts or had that conversation. I just think the conversation is more open today than it has.

[00:21:08] Heather: I think they had those thoughts. I just think they thought they weren't allowed to say it out loud.

And you know, I, there's a lot of support out there for women. Something that has bugged me for a long time is how women centric, all the support has been and there's this assumption that the guys don't need it or don't want it. And I don't think that's true.

I've noted throughout my career as I've talked to friends, male attorneys, colleagues and non attorney clients who were almost all men because I was in finance and most of my clients were men. They cared deeply about being a parent, about balance, about being there. I would say that the language was sometimes a little bit different than the way women describe it, but it was ultimately very much the same thing that what they wanted.

And now as a mom to two boys, I see it and I see, I'm like, oh, we are, we've left men behind in this. And that's not right or fair.

And I think, honestly I think the more we not just talk about this but support men in this area, I actually think it's going to help women as well with not just finding balance but some of the fight that they're having over. We are having over, you know, moving up in the ranks because it will equalize and everybody will seem like will actually be more on equal footing, I guess and hear about a lot of the same things. I just, I kind of think that that is going to help.

How Supporting Lawyer Dads & Male Attorneys Impacts Lawyer Moms/Female Lawyers

[00:22:46] Matthew: Yeah, I think so too. We, we, we had our first ever virtual summit for the For Dad Ask. I keep talking about, we talk about what it is.

[00:22:54] Heather: I know we're going to get in in a second.

[00:22:55] Matthew: What made you. But, but it just sparks things in my mind. We had this discussion with a panel of lawyer moms at our virtual summit and one of the, one of the, you know, it was about how can lawyer dads better support their partners at home and their partners at work.

And when we talked, the work discussion was really interesting because the, from the lawyer moms on the panel, their perspective was like I want lawyer dads to be saying things like hey, I have to leave at 3:30 today to get to soccer practice.

Because then it's not a mom issue, it's a parent issue issue. Right. And it normalizes. This is just something parents do. They need more flexibility. It's not a women in the workplace need more flexibility or moms need more flexibility.

It's not a, we're interviewing somebody and we're like, oh, they're kind, she's kind of childbearing age. Do we, you know, and I'm an employment lawyer. We should never be doing that.

[00:23:52] Heather: Right.

[00:23:52] Matthew: But like if there's any thoughts about it should just be like, hey, this is somebody that's going to need some flexibility. They might need some parental leave. That's great because in my experience the lawyer parents that I work with, men and women who are parents, they're great lawyers. They are, they are super efficient because they have to be to get their work done. They, they work really hard because they have a big family to support back home. Right. So like, you know, we should, we should be recognizing that. But it's not a, this is a, you know, moms are going to have to take this much leave or moms have to have more flexibility because they're the ones that have to take the kids to the doctor, show up for soccer practice or the PTA meeting. It should be a, this is just what parents Do.

[00:24:36] Heather: Yes.

[00:24:36] Matthew: And it normalizes it in a way.

So I agree. I think, I think that when dads, you know, I've had conversations like that where I haven't taken a full leave in the past. I'm a single income family, so there's different issues that go around with that. And I think how much leave you take is a super personal decision. But like, I've had lawyer moms who are my friends who are like, you really need to take it, you need to, you need to set these, the example for other people to show this is, this is normal, this is okay.

So, yeah, all of those things. I think that when we prioritize, you know, we have to support working parents.

It's, it's a big thing. And the challenges are different. The challenges, as you pointed out already, like moms generally aren't thinking, should I take less leave? It's like, I need this leave. And dads aren't there yet. We're still thinking about should I take a full leave entitlement. And so they're different, different issues. But I think can be viewed if we, if we support both sides of the issue, it makes it better for everybody.

The Role of Dad Esquire: Supporting Lawyer Dads

[00:25:40] Heather: Yeah, absolutely. So let's get into the group.

What was the seed that got planted that got you starting it?

[00:25:48] Matthew: Sure.

So I launched dad dad Esquire. I call it dad Esque just for short. But I launched Dead Esquire January 1, 2025.

And leading up to that, there's, you know, with anything like this, I feel like there's like so many different inputs.

The most direct ones, you know, I was, I turned 40 in December 2024, and I think I was looking for something had more just an impact. And I was meeting with other lawyer dads.

I always remember one specific conversation with a guy who was in law school who had a child, which blew my mind. I didn't have any kids in law school. And super, huge, huge respect for people that have kids in law school. There's a lot more of them than I thought. There's a lot in my community now. He was like, how do you balance it? How do you do it? And my response, my immediate response is I just sleep less than other people. And then I was like, that's not super. It's true. It's not healthy. And then I was.

[00:26:49] Heather: Not great advice either.

[00:26:50] Matthew: No, it's not. And so I said, let me try to find some resources for you that are better than what my lived experience experiences. So I started looking for him. Really? And, and just seeing what can I Find out there for lawyer dads that are trying to balance, you know, private practice with raising a young family.

And I found absolutely nothing there. There's just there. There is. I, I started digging and I found some good dad content. And that's awesome. I like, I support, you know, all the guys out there that are doing good dad content. I think it's great. But I think there are some unique things about being a lawyer that don', better, worse, harder, easier, anything than any other profession, but they're unique. And it, it's a different thing. The stress of billable hour expectations and client demands and responsiveness. All those things that the stresses are just different than other professions face. And so I have always loved community.

I was an RA in college and I built community for, you know, 60 freshmen guys on my floor and loved that experience. And then my wife and I have led a small group at our church for the last 10 years for married couples with kids.

And I've just seen the, the impact that community has and building those relationships with other people over the, over the course of that 10, 15 year period. And so my thought was, hey, I can create a space where guys can show up, feel safe sharing, see other guys sharing and leading by example in that so that they feel more comfortable doing it themselves.

And I can create, I have something called the dad Law Library. So I've created a law library of podcasts and different, different blogs and things that are, you know, either lawyer related, dad related, or both.

Because, you know, my perspective is like, I'm a busy lawyer dad. I don't have time to do all this research and go down these rabbit holes to find the good stuff. So I, I view part of my role as of hosting the community is just connecting people in my community, the resources that can help them. And so that's, you know, I, I don't think I'm an expert at being a dad. I've got 11 years of lived experience. One of my members said I get credit for every child. So in that respect, I have 27 years of being a dad at 41 years old.

But I, yeah, I mean, I wanted to create a space, a safe space for people and to, you know, when there's a guy that's like, hey, we had a guy a week or two ago that, hey, my baby's waking up, they're teething and they're doing regret sleep regression. You know, we got them finally sleeping through the night and then teething started and we're dealing with sleep regression. I've been through that Four times now. And so I, you know, I, I not the expert, but I can say this is what worked for us. And then 10 other guys jump into the chat feed and start saying this is what we did and this is how we dealt with it and this is how we stayed awake at work the next day. And just like that, that to me is so cool to see guys having conversations like that in a community with people they don't really know that well, but they know there are other people that are lawyers, who are dads, who prioritize family. Like that has been super rewarding.

So it's, it's kind of achieved that. What I, what I thought going in was the goal is, it's already achieved it and it's getting better every day.

[00:30:19] Heather: So the community aspect I think is key here because as you said earlier, when you don't talk to people, you just assume you're the only one. It's just me.

[00:30:29] Matthew: Yeah.

[00:30:29] Heather: Nobody else is like this. Something's wrong with me.

And I think it'll be interesting for the women out there listening to this going, oh my gosh, the guys do this too.

They're also thinking the same things and they're, they're talking about the same things we are. Yeah, they are.

It's interesting to me. But just like with women, we often want fellow women to commiserate with, to get advice from. We talk to our spouses, we have friends of the opposite sex, but we want a group of more like minded folks who get us. And that's what this sounds like it is. And hopefully it's breaking a lot of these barriers and boundaries and allowing men to, you know, come in and actually talk more and figure out, oh my gosh, this is so normal.

[00:31:15] Matthew: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I always, I always have to say there's a group that's been around since 2013 called Mother's Esquire that is fantastic. They host on Facebook.

I've, I've met with one of the persons on the advisory board of their group and you know, have really, you know, I think we can, we're, we're probably going to partner in the future on doing some things together because I think these issues really do, you know, we can, we can make more impact together. But to your point like that, that's, that to me is, the benefit is, is having guys come in. It's relatable. Like, I have, I have plenty of guy friends who are dads from our small group. We, we meet together, we have breakfast at a diner, you know, on Sunday mornings at 6am which is the only time we could all find space to do that with young families. And so but they're engineers and they're, you know, H vac tech and all different kinds of professions.

And they don't, you know, when talk about it and I'm like, hey, I was at work in the office 50 hours this week and I only billed 34. They don't fundamentally just don't get what that means. And every lawyer that joins the community understands that even if they haven't been in private practice, they get it. They, they have friends that are in private practice, they understand.

And so there's that relatability and that's the best part. When somebody posts something and somebody else immediately responds, same same experience it for that person that posted. It's acknowledgment that I'm not, I'm not the only person that's dealing with this. And I want to see more and more of that. Like I think a lot about in the community. It's a, it's a free community to join. I don't charge anybody to join the community because I'm really, I'm laser focused on creating this space and I think that it need, there needs to be a space for this.

And dad Esque is the only community for lawyer dads out there.

There are multiple lawyer mom communities by the way. There's only one so far for lawyer dads. And so I want the space to be accessible to everybody. But I think a lot about how do I get guys to open up? How do I. Because that's, that's a hurdle.

You know, most people that run communities will tell you free communities don't get the kind of engagement because there's no buy in.

[00:33:36] Heather: Right.

[00:33:37] Matthew: All of the things my engagement's like off the chart for online communities. It's, it's incredible because I'm so intentional about. I want guys to feel really safe coming in here and sharing and then seeing guys do it. It really like it's a leadership by example thing. And it started with me being really open about the things I struggle with and the things that I've, that I've experienced over the years. And it allows other people to open up too.

So we're still building that. I mean we're close to 600 members already in 44 states and 15 or 16 countries at this point, mostly us, but kind of around the world. And we're, we're, we're building that it will get better and better as we grow because There'll be more guys willing to share and more guys jumping in that can say, I've, I've been there too.

[00:34:30] Heather: It's amazing your growth, how quickly it's gone, honestly. Although I'm not totally surprised because there, you're right. There's nothing else out there and it really meets a need. And it sounds like you've been super intentional about meeting the need that is actually there.

It speaks a lot in marketing to understanding who, who your people are and meeting their needs and it actually working.

So I'm curious to know, are a lot of your members, like, is there a generational differentiation? Are there mostly younger people with younger kids? Like, what does it look like?

[00:35:06] Matthew: Yeah, that's, that's a great question. We have, we have, it kind of runs the gamut both in terms of law practice. Like we have, we have a few judges, we have people in government roles, we have non profit in house private practice solos, plaintiffs attorneys.

One of my favorite chats the other day was a plaintiff's attorney and a defense attorney on either side of the V on a case. And one of them posted, he'd sent a text and said, happy birthday, man. I'm not going to file a motion on you on Friday this week.

This is your birthday. And it was just like this evidence that there can be civility across the aisle.

So we have from a practice standpoint, the whole range, we even the qualifications, you either have to be in law school, which we have a bunch of law school dads, like I said, or have a JD or an international equivalent.

So. But we even have some people that have left the practice a law to do something else. And they, you know, whether you call that a recovering attorney or retired attorney or former attorney, we have some of them and I love their, you know, experience and their insight to the guys who are maybe in private practice that won't always be in private practice. And so we have kind of the gamut of law lawyers. And then with, with respect to age and age of kids.

One of our first members was a guy who does the CLE programming for South Carolina. I'd reached out to him about doing a CLE for, for, for lawyer dads. And we have like a substance abuse mental health component to our CLE in South Carolina. So I actually ended up, we did it for working parents and I co presented with a lady named April is awesome. And we, we did a really cool CLE presentation. But I asked him, I said, you're, you're a dad and you're a lawyer. You should Join. And he's like, well, I'm a, I, you know, I raised my kids already. Now I'm a lawyer, granddad. I'm like, I'm pretty sure you're still a dad and we'd love to have your insights. That's the conversation with like, like, God. I get a lot when I meet people on LinkedIn and they hear about the community, they're like, man, I wish this existed when I was raising my kids.

And for me, I've always thought, I like having somebody ahead of me, somebody alongside of me and somebody behind me that I can pour into.

And so having those guys that have been through the teenage years, I'm like, I've got an 11 year old who thinks he's 17 and I need a guy that's been through the teenage years. So when I have questions, I have somebody to go to that has lived it. And so that, that happened recently we had a guy that said, My daughter's 12, turning 13, I feel like our relationship is changing and needs to change in a way. And some other guy was like, hey man, my daughter's 27, let's jump on a call and I'll tell you what, what worked for us and how that looked for us. And I'm like, that's. So we have that group. It's a, that's a smaller group. It takes a special kind of guy to be done, you know, air quotes, done raising children that still wants to jump in and pour into younger guys. And so that, that group, I, I love when guys join that are in that group.

There's guys with. Probably a lot of guys that join are either expectant dads. We, I also have expectant dads join mostly because I have a birth announcement section. And so when they have their baby, they post a picture and it's awesome. That's my favorite notification I get is the birth announcements.

So we have expectant dads and new dads and obviously like, they're, as soon as they hear about it, they're like, man, I, I need to get, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what I'm getting into or what I just got into. And so we have a good, good group of that and then we have kind of the end. But I kind of, I kind of consider myself the in between. We've got 11, 8, 5 and 3. And so I've got a good amount of experience with babies and you know, up to 11 years old now.

And so we have, we have that too. And it's, it's this is great because guys that are, that have a 12 week old baby at home are able to post something and there's plenty of guys that are like, hey, I went through that three years ago. Let me talk to you about it.

So it's a pretty diverse, pretty diverse group of dads that have joined the community already. I'm, I don't have great.

Part of, part of when you're running a community and being a full time lawyer, because I still practicing law full time is my, you know, if I had 10 more hours a week, I'd track better. Like the age ranges and things. I don't have exact numbers. I just know the guys that are showing up for the chat and for the events. We do.

[00:39:34] Heather: Yeah, but it sounds like you at least have people who run the gamut so that you have people who are there with all kinds of experience, all kinds of ability to really chime in with differing opinions that are very helpful, that people can weigh. Right.

So I think, I think, you know, sometimes you need to hear from somebody who's going through the same thing as you. Sometimes you need to hear from somebody who's already gone through it. And sometimes you want to hear from somebody who has gone through it. But it's been a while. But they have a very different perspective now because they see things differently now where they are. So it's pretty awesome that you have people in each of those categories.

And I would encourage any lawyer dad out there who's listening and going, oh, wow, this would be great to, to check it out and, and join.

[00:40:20] Matthew: Yeah, yeah, no, I, that's, that is, that's been my experience. I will say this about guys. They're not afraid to give other people advice.

And so there is no, you know, that's a lesson I've learned. Well, I'm still learning over 15 years of marriage is when my wife just wants to be heard and when she wants advice.

And so guys are not afraid to give advice. And so usually when there's a question, there are plenty of guys that are willing to jump in. And this is what we did. And you're right. Like it's different. It's, it's different. And I learned things, I learned things from these guys. I have questions that I drop in there and say, hey, what do you guys think? Hey, I was down with the flu. My wife did all of the duties around the house. How do I, how do I acknowledge it? But now I gotta, now I'm behind at work and I gotta catch up at work. How Do I acknowledge that but also still do my job and balance all these things? Like, that was one of my recent questions to the community.

And I got six or seven guys that jumped in and said, here's, here's what I think. You should send her the spot. You should do this or, you know, carve out a little time for her.

So those, like, we, the. The conversations run the gamut from like, talking about football to talking about, like, baby things to talking about really serious marriage things. And I love that too. You know, when I started it, I was like. Like I was laser focused on dad and lawyer. And one of the guys that joined really early on, who's. Who's one of our more active members, he's like, you know, we're just guys too. Like, we can talk about other things besides being dads and besides being lawyers. And I was like, that's brilliant. Like that. That is okay to have a chat full of, you know, just what is going on in your life?

What. What is your hobby? We've got guys that do woodworking. There's a. There's a small group of guys in my community that's their hobby, and that's what they love doing. And so you can connect on so many different levels. And so that's what I'm focused on now is figuring out how to connect people on different levels in the community. Besides just our two. Everybody's a dad and everybody's a lawyer in the community, but we have other interests and other things that are going on in our lives.

Final Message: Be Connected to Others Like You (For Peer & Mentor Support)

[00:42:27] Heather: And I think this robustness is probably why it's been so popular, so effective, and why it's growing so much. Okay, so before I let you go, what would be the final message you would want to leave the listeners with?

[00:42:43] Matthew: Just, I. I think whether it's Lawer Dads Esq., Mother's Esquire, your church group, wherever. I, I think. I think we live in a world today that feels really connected, but is not. And, you know, we feel more connected. We're connected with X number of people on social media and we have people that we work with that, you know, we see every day. But do we really know what's going on in their life? You know, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be a particular group, but I think it's really important for people not to feel isolated and to feel like they have people they can go to when they have something going on beyond the immediate family, just somebody else that's out there. I think this is a more profound issue for men like there's studies out there. The number of close friends that guys have in their 30s and 40s is like alarmingly low. And so having those people that you can go to is super important. And you know, like I said, wherever that, wherever you can find that, you got to be intentional about it. The relationship should go deeper than just the, hey, we're talking about the football game. But wherever you can find that. I think that, I think we'll see more and more of that because I think we the. The beautiful thing about online Dead Esque is an online community.

But what my vision for it is is guys in a certain city will connect and there'll be dead ass St. Louis meetups and they'll be, you know, we've already had two members in Singapore that never would have met each other, met each other in the community and then had coffee together in person in real life. And I'm like that, that's what I want to see is guys that can develop those relationships. This is a place to connect and then develop a deeper relationship so that you have that person when you need them. So that I think that's what I leave with is just, I'm really laser focused on helping to connect and reduce that feeling of isolation that so many guys, whether they want to admit it, whether they, you know, they look like they have a good group of guy friends, they go out and have fun, but do they have those close guys that they can go to and, and talk about real stuff? That, that's the, the thing that we, I think we need to work on.

[00:44:54] Heather: I would agree. And I think that is the perfect ending message. Where can people find you if they want to connect with you?

[00:45:02] Matthew: Sure. So we have a website, it's dad esq.com and then there's a join the community button. So if you're a lawyer dad, you can press that or you can go to dad ESQ Mn Co. A lot of people think I host this community on LinkedIn because I have a lot of LinkedIn content about lawyer dad. So like, thanks for being part of the community. It's actually hosted on a separate platform called Mighty Network. So to actually join the community, you go to dad esque.com or dad s mn co and then connect on LinkedIn. I do, I do a lot of, a lot of parenting work, life balance type content on LinkedIn.

And I want people to join in that discussion, talk about these issues openly talk about the things that are going on in their lives. So that's, that's another place to reach out.

[00:45:51] Heather: And I will put links to all of those places in the show notes so that people can easily find you. Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:45:58] Matthew: It was so good talking to you. Heather. Thank you. And I'm really glad we met.