#235: Why Lawyers Are Meant To Lead (In A Complicated World)

[00:01:02] Well, hello. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Life & Law. This is your host, Heather Moulder. Today, we are getting into something a little bit different. So this is Life and Law. And today, we are getting into the life portion. And I’m just going to be honest. I have been thinking about this topic for many, many, many months.

And I keep putting it off. I think I was afraid of having this conversation.

[00:01:35] But over the last two months, I’ve had a couple of client conversations that have made it incredibly clear that this conversation needs to be had. And that’s why I’m in here today. Because we like to pretend that we can compartmentalize what’s going on in the world and it not impact us at work, but that’s just not the case. We are integrated beings and what happens in the world impacts us. It impacts our feelings, it impacts how we think, it impacts how we show up in everything that we do, whether at home or at work. And a lot of the conversations I’ve had over these past few months with – not just clients, but other attorneys and people I know – have showcased how much our culture, our partisan culture, has become very toxic and is really impacting so many of us.

So today, we are going to get into exactly what I’m talking about. We’re going to get into how the brain works that leads us this way. Because I think it’s important for us to understand so that we can overcome it ourselves, and so that we also understand others when they fall prey to it and don’t immediately put them into the oh my gosh, they’re terrible people box. Now, they may be doing terrible things or thinking in terrible ways, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a lost cause.

[00:03:05] So we’re going to get into that piece, but then we’re going to get into the good news. So I really hope that you stick around today because there is some good news.

And it’s people like us who are trained very uniquely. Lawyers are trained very specifically in a way that I think can really help ourselves, our communities, our families, our friends, and society at large if we so choose to utilize the training that we have in very specific ways.

The Event That Convinced Me To Record Today’s Podcast

[00:03:40] So let me start with a story.

A lawyer that I know, who I respect, came to me recently very upset. I would say distraught, not because of work, but because a friend group had been ignoring her. And when she had asked why, she found out she was, quote unquote, out of the group. Not because of anything she’d done, but due to politics. She had actually changed her mind on a pretty big issue that is a very big hot topic. I’m not going to get into that specifically because today isn’t about the specific politics, but she changed her mind on something that they had been discussing over the past year or so, and she was no longer within the quote-unquote norm thinking of that particular group.

[00:04:28] What struck me the most about our conversation wasn’t that she was angry. It was that she was so worried, worried that this was becoming or had already become the norm. That we as a society are losing the ability to stay in relationship with people who think differently than us.

And let’s be honest, this isn’t a one-off. It’s something that’s becoming more common. I think she’s right. I think we as a society are starting to lose this ability. And discussions around partisanship and the impact of partisanship on society and our own mental health are starting to increase.

I am starting to hear this more and more in my conversations with family, with friends, with former colleagues, and even, as I noted earlier, with clients.

The Times In Which We Live (Interesting, To Say The Least)

[00:05:15] So let’s just get out what we’re talking about here. We live in very interesting times. Our current cultural reality is:

• Complexity is avoided. We don’t like it.
• Nuance is treated as fence-sitting.
• Certainty is rewarded (even if it’s wrong).
• And changing your mind is seen as a weakness.

And it has translated into pick-a-side thinking. There’s the right side, there’s the wrong side. And if you’re on the wrong side, you cut them off. Not for anything they’ve done, but for what they believe.

[00:05:50] It leads to fear of “other”. We get away from understanding others and their viewpoints. And we are not open to changing our minds. And it becomes a highly partisan, increasingly toxic thing.

It shrinks our worlds, it shrinks our relationships, and it limits our own abilities –  our thinking, which eventually can lead to excuse-making on your side for behavior you once held wrong. It’s okay if it’s done to the “right” people.

And many of us think, oh, I won’t ever get there. And maybe you won’t. But there are a lot of people who once thought they could never get there, who clearly we can see are on this path or already there.

This Isn’t Just About Politics (It’s About Individual & Societal Health)

[00:06:35] Now, I want to make this clear. This isn’t really about politics. It’s about health. It’s about your health. It’s about societal health. I am not going to tell you what side you should be on. I honestly don’t care what your politics are, or even if you have a side. I frankly don’t. I used to – a long time ago, when things were more normal. Now I don’t feel like I have a side at all.

I want to help you understand what’s going on right now and how it might be impacting you, your relationships, your own happiness, and your leadership abilities. And why lawyers are uniquely built to lead differently in times like these. Because, let’s get real, you became a lawyer for a reason.

[00:07:23] Most of us enter this profession to make society better, to improve how we relate and how we live. That calling – it matters, and it is still available, starting right now. This is what we are talking about today.

Because it’s not just about your legal work. It’s about how you show up everywhere. If you can’t tell, I’m pretty passionate about this.

Now, this is a companion piece to something I talked about last year. I will put a link to that episode in the show notes, but the gist of that episode was this:

We lawyers have a responsibility to lead because of who we are, because of our role within society, because of how others view us. I feel very strongly about that. And that piece and my opinions on that are obviously influential to what we’re talking about today. But I’m not going to get into that piece. I want to get into what I’m talking about, what’s going on, how the mind works, how we fall prey to this, how others fall prey to this, and what we lawyers, what you can start doing to make the world a better place and also to make your life and your family’s lives and your community’s lives a better place to live in.

How The Brain Works (Survival Instinct Gone Haywire)

[00:08:42] Okay, so part one: Why does this even happen? And how is this happening to some really smart people? People we used to respect, who it feels like have gone over some weird, deep edge. And you’re like, how did you get there?

Well, human beings are hardwired to want belonging, community, a clear identity, and moral certainty.

[00:09:10] And we’re also hardwired for survival. Our survival instincts lead us to groupthink, to be quite honest with you. Because once upon a time, being other than the group, outside of the group of whatever the norms were of the group you were within, was actually quite dangerous. You needed to be a part of the group. And so we have this hard wiring going on, and you have that survival instinct – with also that hard wiring for community, identity, moral certainty.

And this is how we get to a place where we’re more partisan even when it doesn’t make sense.

The Problem: Over-Identifying With “The Group” Creates A Fear Cycle

[00:09:49] And unfortunately, there’s kind of a bait and switch that happens when we over-identify with, quote, unquote, the group. Because our survival instinct to stay part of that crowd and not stray, but to belong, leads to a trap. A trap I call the fear cycle.

So once you get into that group and you start to think in us-versus-them terms, fear takes over. Your brain is going to focus on the “them”. And when I say them, it’s the:

• What’s different?
• What’s wrong about other people’s beliefs, about how they live, about what they do?

You start to see that other. It’s what I call othering. You start to see them as dangerous to the group that you’re within.

[00:10:37] And it cuts off all ability to see nuance. And let’s be real, folks, nuance exists in this world. There is not always a clear black-and-white. There is a lot of gray, which does suck, but it’s true.

And when all of this fear starts to really get going, and you start to see more and more people this way and the world this way, you become more reactive. You scan for threats because you expect them, which means you see them sometimes when they don’t really exist. You’re more likely to think you see them when they’re not really even there.

[00:11:16] During this fear cycle, the trap is set. Your nervous system activates. It narrows your perception. When you’re afraid, you’re less likely to ask questions. You’re less likely to weigh evidence. You’re more likely to assign motives instead of engaging arguments and actually being open to understanding.

Disagreement is treated as danger. So, even when the other side is reasonable or even right, your brain just can’t see it. You’re psychologically incapable. So the cycle is:

• Fear leads to rigidity,
• Which leads to more fear,
• Leading to a smaller world,
• Which starts back over again (and is ever-shrinking).

The Cost of Partisanship

[00:12:00] And that leads us to the cost.

When we get into this type of partisan groupthink and over-identifying. And this is important, this is happening when we over-identify with a group, when we become more partisan, everything shrinks.

Relationships narrow, curiosity fades. You stop seeing people as individuals and see them as categories. That is the most dangerous thing. And I don’t care what you think of these people. Let me be clear, don’t care. Gonna go on both sides here. But this is why and how.

[00:12:38] People were as ugly and are as ugly right now as they were when Charlie Kirk was assassinated. A human being with young children. Some of the things I saw from fellow lawyers were insanity. Same thing now with Mueller’s death. At the time of this recording, he has passed, and our whole – our president is saying horrific things. This is what it leads to, and it’s wrong.

How This Shows Up Inside Our Own Lives

[00:13:06] Let’s look at the ripple effect into scenarios we all actually recognize because you know, we’ve been there. Whether it’s you doing this, a family member or a friend doing this, we’ve seen this, we’ve experienced this.

• The family dinner where certain topics are always off limits, but everybody feels the tension anyway. And if somebody dares bring it up, boom, someone explodes, probably several someones.
• The longtime friendship that’s now surface-level because you’re both afraid to say the wrong thing.
• The colleague you used to grab coffee with but now avoid because of who they voted for.
• The neighborhood group chat you muted because it became a minefield.
• The holiday gathering you’re dreading instead of looking forward to, because oh my gosh, certain topics are going to come up that you do not agree with, and how are you going to handle it? Will they find out? What will they think of you?

The mental energy spent curating what you say, who you’re around, what you post, et cetera.

[00:14:00] Living like this has a real impact on your nervous system. You’re in constant low-grade threat mode. Even if you’re not that partisan person, there’s less tolerance being built up even within you. No matter how hard you try, there’s more frustration, and you become quicker to write people off because gosh, this is just not worth it. This is too hard.

So there’s a real cost. Even if you’re not partaking in that other thinking, it’s impacting you.

It decreases confidence. It does make you a little more rigid. All of us, we become more rigid in our thinking. We’re less willing to be wrong, which means less growth. Life feels heavier, more combative, more fear-based. This is a real loss to all of us.

[00:14:52] And when it starts to happen, and I think this is why so many people are starting to talk about this more, even in my client coaching sessions, because we lose that open, curious person that we used to be. Most of us lawyers are curious. We were open to both sides of an argument. We found it interesting. Remember the days of law school, when we wanted to be able to argue both sides?

This world we are living in is becoming too limited, too narrow, and not joyful at all. And the thing about it is, even if you feel like it’s not really impacting you yet, it’s a yet, y’all. Because it can’t be compartmentalized forever.

How You Think Is How You (Ultimately) Live

[00:15:41] How we think is how we live.

If you become more rigid in some of your personal viewpoints, even if you didn’t start that way, but it’s more like forced upon you, as I noted earlier, it bleeds into your own thinking, which eventually bleeds into your own credibility. Because guess what? This narrow thinking abandons nuance. It abandons your own training.

[00:16:08] When you do that, you abandon your own responsibility that I talked about in that other episode that I highly recommend you go back and listen to (if you haven’t listened to it). It will bleed into judgment, it will bleed into interactions. It will bleed into the culture you are trying to create within your own team, within the law practice you’re even trying to build.

It will impact your leadership and your credibility.

[00:16:34] Now, the good news, and I would like to note, most people I know are not in the extreme at this point. I worry that we’re becoming more and more that way, and we’re kind of like a pinball machine where the balls within the pinball machine are just being pushed around constantly. And eventually you go down into, you know, you drop.

And we’re all hoping we don’t do that, but eventually, everyone has a breaking point. Everyone. Once we’re around this enough and we don’t fight back and we don’t lead ourselves, we all fall prey because we’re all human.

So what I want to say is I get that you’re not in that place. I get that you see it. I get that you don’t like it.

The Good News: You Are Uniquely Trained To Combat This (& Lead The Way)

[00:17:25] This is the good news. This is the next step. Because you, my friend, were trained for exactly what everyone else is avoiding. And this is where you get to lead. You get to lead and create a better world for yourself and create a better reality. For you, your family, your friends, your community. And if enough of us do this, it does make an impact.

So, our legal training:

• It helps us to hold competing truths.
• It allows us to see and argue both sides, even when we don’t agree with one side or with everything.
• It allows us to help separate emotion from analysis.
• It gives us respect for process over impulse, and it enables us to identify and even embrace nuance.

[00:18:20] What this training produces is intellectual humility, curiosity, discipline, instead of emotional reactivity when others don’t see things your way, openness to changing your mind, and tolerance for differing viewpoints.

The thing I would ask of you is that you start to see, oh, my training can be applied everywhere, not just in my work, because guess what, it’s not just a professional skill, it is a way of thinking. And if you so choose to utilize this intellectual humility, this curiosity, this discipline, this openness, this tolerance, this respect, if you so choose to utilize it, even when dealing with people who are very different and have viewpoints that bring on the emotions, because it is more personal. If you so choose to utilize this training in that personal arena, it is also a way of being and can be applied in your relationships, in your conversations, and change how you see people who think differently.

[00:19:40] Now, maybe you’re thinking, well, maybe I don’t want to.

I am not saying that you have to accept – that you have to agree. But there is a real benefit that I hope you can see in being open and curious and aiming for more understanding. Because what I think you’re going to find is that the majority of people are not bad, are not evil, and that you can get to a place where you can actually understand where they’re coming from. May not agree, probably won’t, but you can understand.

[00:20:15] And that makes for a much better community and society. Now, it doesn’t mean that the people truly are bad apples. You’re not aiming to agree with them or even understand how on earth they get there. But it’s important to be able to see the differentiation. And right now we can’t. We put everybody into these other boxes, and we see them as bad, which is really bad for society, honestly, when you think about it. Because we’re kind of ignoring the ones who truly are bad and it allows them to take advantage of us.

And I see a lot of that right now. It allows the truly bad apples to take advantage. Let’s not let them do that.

What Is Happiness?

[00:20:58] This is also about you and your happiness. Real happiness comes from psychological safety, not ideological safety. And psychological safety is often misunderstood.

Psychological safety comes from being comfortable with who you are, being so confident in who you are that you’re open to other viewpoints, and you’re willing to change your mind. That’s actually freedom.

[00:21:27] So when you’re in a situation, when somebody else has very different viewpoints, massively disagrees, the conversation feels like it’s getting heated. How do you use your legal mind then?

Curiosity

Well, get curious. Get curious about what’s going on here. What are their underlying beliefs? What has occurred, what situations and circumstances have occurred that have led to this? What values might they have that are different than mine, that lead them down this path?

[00:21:56] Get curious instead of shutting down and assuming. We often assume. And when we assume, we usually assume incorrectly. Ask, okay, help me understand. Explain to me that a little bit more. Get behind the feelings, get into the real beliefs, get into the values.

What if you stayed in those conversations not to convince, but to understand what happens when you do this? You learn about them, about their values, about what’s underneath the position that they’ve taken.

You often will actually find common ground. You did not expect similar desired outcomes, different paths makes you see the person quite differently. You stop fearing, you understand. And that changes everything. Because guess what? If there’s an opportunity for changing their mind, this is what opens that door.

Aim To Understand (Not Convince or Defend)

[00:22:51] Be willing to get to know them, understand them. Be willing to change your own mind when you realize you didn’t understand something as well as maybe you thought.  When you go in that way, you’re more likely to change other people’s minds too.

This is what psychological safety actually is. It’s not about only hanging out with people who believe what you believe. It’s about not defending, but being curious.

[00:23:20] People become interesting again instead of threats and you have this calm confidence around who you are as a person.

 It helps to replace that anxiousness that we all feel when we have to be certain, when we have to be right, when we have to know the truth. About grounded people the most grounded people I have ever met in my entire life are not certain about everything. They know there’s complexity, they understand there’s nuance. They realize they’re probably wrong about a variety of things. They just may not know what those all are yet.

And they are curious. Curious about people, curious about how they think, curious about why they think the way they do, just curious.

[00:24:12] The thing about partisanship and groupthink that we often forget is that it makes you afraid to even look at your own beliefs because your group won’t accept you if you deviate. That is not freedom, y’all. That’s a cage. And that’s a part of why the anxiety right now.

How This Impacts Your Legal Career & Law Practice

[00:24:30] So, how does this translate into the law portion? We’ve talked more about the personal, the life, the happiness, the not being anxious, the being calm and confident in who you are, being curious, all of that.

This is also what real leadership actually looks like. Because good leaders aren’t certain. They’re willing to hold complexity when others won’t. They’re willing to be wrong. They’re willing to change their mind.

[00:25:00] They ask: Why do you see it that way? Instead of assuming bad intent, they get behind the surface positions to understand values that are underneath those positions. They allow people with, quote, unquote, other views into their own realm, not despite the difference, but because of what you can learn from them, because of those differences.

And they’re willing to say, you know what? I might be wrong about this. Let’s get behind that. So I can see the ripple effect of leading. In this way, you become more knowledgeable. You actually understand multiple perspectives, not caricatures. You become more influential.

[00:25:35] People trust those who truly listen, not those who argue, not those who pretend to listen only so that they can, like, find ways to come in and change your mind. People who really listen, you become happier because it reduces that fear. You don’t shrink your world. There’s no more exhausting vigilance.

[00:25:57] Other people see this, and some people will follow. That’s how culture shifts, one person at a time.

Protecting Yourself From Overly Partisan People

[00:26:06] A final note around how to protect yourself from really partisan people.

First off, you do not have to disengage from everybody who is partisan. But you do need boundaries. So when you’re around people who have really been pulled into that more toxic arena, notice the pull, right? The pull on you. When you feel yourself getting activated, pause, ask: “Is this my emotion? Am I absorbing theirs?”.

[00:26:41] That helps you to disengage from it and not take the bait. So you don’t want to take the bait. You do not have to argue. You do not have to agree. You can simply not engage. You can try to be more curious because. And it will depend on how far they’ve fallen.

I will note that some of these people are savable. Over time, the ones you truly care about, family, close friends, or formerly close friends, maybe it’s worthwhile to stick around, be curious, and show that you’re allowing them their space so that they can start to see that you’re being impacted differently.

[00:27:21] You’re living a better life. Wait, what’s going on here? Just do not take the bait. Now.

You do have to limit exposure over time. So you get to choose how much partisan content and how many partisan people you let into your life, curate accordingly. It doesn’t mean you cut them out completely, but you know, some. These people are family members sometimes, and we don’t want to fully cut them out. And we hope and pray that they can over time change and get back to the person you once knew.

[00:27:53] But in the meantime, you may have to be careful about how often you’re exposed. You cannot control other people’s partisanship, but you can control how much of it you let in and whether it pulls you under.

How To Ensure You Don’t Fall Into the Partisan Trap

[00:28:05] When it comes to steering clear of being partisan you yourself. This is hard. I’m just gonna say it. It’s hard because of the way the brain is wired. And sometimes it’s really hard to identify when we’re going down this path, it feels like being right.

So, some practices to help.

1. Right now, make a conscious choice.

Decide proactively that you do not want to be that way. Not because both sides are the same, but because partisanship costs you too much. It costs you your peace, it costs you your curiosity, it costs you your relationships, it costs you your own judgment. Remind yourself of that cost regularly and make the decision.

2. Stay curious on purpose.

[00:28:52] Curiosity is a muscle. If you do not use it, it will atrophy. So make it a practice to ask genuine questions, especially about views you disagree with. Not to debate, but to understand. And remember, understanding does not mean agreement or acceptance.

Going into events or places where you know some partisan folks are going to be. Go in with that conscious choice and being curious, practice intellectual humility. Remind yourself that you might be wrong about some things.

[00:29:27] This will help you be willing to change your mind when it makes sense. It’s hard to change our minds, but something I have learned over the years is that it’s also very freeing when you are willing to change your mind. When you’re not afraid of being wrong, and you’re willing to go, huh, maybe I’m wrong about this, and I can change my mind. You are no longer trapped by the need to be right. It’s incredibly freeing.

3. Diversify your information diet.

This one’s a big one. If everyone you follow agrees with you on social media, if every piece you read in the news basically reports the way you already think, you are in an echo chamber.

[00:30:11] So you need to intentionally add voices, news sources, opinion pieces that challenge your assumptions, that see the world differently. There are good people on both sides reporting and opining on issues that are important to you. Do yourself a favor and go find them. This is hugely important.

The goal is not to have no opinions, by the way. It’s to hold your opinions but loosely enough that you can still think clearly, engage honestly, and live fully. This is not a weakness. It’s true freedom. I keep saying that word, freedom. Huge value of mine.And that freedom is a key to living a happy, fulfilling, and fun life, y’all.

[00:31:00] This world doesn’t need more certainty or partisanship. What it does need?

Thoughtfulness over reactivity, restraint over impulse, curiosity over judgment, adults willing to hold complexity and nuance. You know, be real adults. And a willingness to be wrong and actually change your mind upon occasion.

That happens to be what good leaders are, what they do. And the bonus is it will make you calmer, less anxious. It will make your life fuller. You’ll have a broader breadth of friends and people within it, and you will be much, much happier. That’s it for this week. Bye for now.