#203: Lawyers, You Have A Responsibility

[00:01:22] Welcome, everybody. This is Heather Moulder, host of the Life & Law Podcast. Today's episode is going to be a little bit different. It's a little more pointed and, yes, a bit more uncomfortable than typical.

So what makes it that way? Well, it's about doing what's right. And doing what's right is often not what's easy.

How Today's Message Ties With Making A Difference

I began this season with a very similar episode about doing what's right but not easy. If you have not listened to that episode, I highly recommend you do so, especially if you enjoy today's episode.

[00:01:54] And also today marks the end of season four. Now, no worries, we will be back with a season five come the fall. I am going to take an extensive break this summer, but I wanted to bookend season four.

The first episode of this season was about how to make a real difference in this world and what making a difference means to you as an individual and a lawyer.

Today, we talk more fully about that in a little bit different way. We are going to talk about the special responsibility we lawyers have within our law firms, within life, within our profession, and frankly, within our politics. And that latter one is really where we're going today.

Our Role As Lawyers

[00:02:41] So, as lawyers, we often consider ourselves advisors, technicians. But that's not all we are.

First, we took an oath to uphold the Laws and the Constitution. Second, we hold societal power. Whether you like it or not, people look up to us. Others, nonlawyers especially, are more likely to listen to us. Third, and I think this is really important to understand because I think it goes into that second point that I just made, we're trained to think differently. To be able to step back and see both sides of an argument, to aim to understand the other side - even when we don't agree with that other side.

[00:03:25] Now, I do believe that most of us lawyers take our oath very seriously, but sometimes we forget what that really means. Because to fully take that oath seriously, we need to use that training about how to think and perceive both sides in different ways, not just in our role as lawyers, but in life - within politics itself.

And I think that's where our societal responsibility comes into play the most.

[00:03:56] We have a responsibility to lead, especially in hard moments. So what do I mean by that?

Examples of How To Lead (& Walk the Talk)

[00:04:03] So let's just rip the band-aid right off. I'm going to give you a couple of examples of the types of things we see going on in our daily lives, especially online, but in the conversations that are happening around the politics that's going on. And no, this is not political. You're going to probably think it is. But hang on, listen to my examples and then let's go through what I'm really talking about - our responsibility. So that we can get away from the politics of it and get into the day-to-day living. The societal, you know, culture that we have, the society that we want to live in, and how we can make a change for the better.

[00:04:46] So example one, you keep hearing about how the current administration is overreaching, but all you can think is, well, where were they when the prior administration actively tried to limit free speech, went after lawyers, brought frivolous charges, sent, stated they wouldn't follow the Supreme Court, talked openly about court packing.

[00:05:06] Okay, I get that to an extent. But come on, how can you support the same thing you decried so loudly before? Why should that matter when your quote unquote side violates due process and or commits executive overreach?

[00:05:23] Maybe you're on the other side of the aisle with a real belief that we are amid a constitutional crisis. Based on my prior comment, I obviously hear you. But let me ask you a question: Where were you when prior administrations, including the previous one, flouted the law themselves? And yes, I get that this one is being a bit more brazen, but just because they're more brazen and frankly a little more honest about what they're doing does not make it any less bad or wrong when prior administrations were doing similar things.

[00:05:57] And for everybody who claimed just last year that no one is above the law, which I agree wholeheartedly. Why is your response to a currently sitting judge in Wisconsin being arrested immediately, "This is a crisis."? At the time of her arrest, it seemed clear that it wasn't completely unwarranted - by reading the public complaint. And before you move on, if you believe, okay, yes, that's true, understand something. You also know that complaint does not mean she 100% broke the law because we all know the complaint is from one side only. There is probably more to the story.

Why not let it play out? Why not step back and go, "Huh. Doesn't seem great, but there's probably another side to this."? For both of you, let the legal process work as intended.

The Real Problem: My Side, Your Side Thinking

[00:06:49] Again, this might sound political, but it's not actually about politics. It's about having principles.

Principles aren't just about words. They are about actions, which means holding yourself accountable and holding others accountable, including your own side. It's about walking the talk.

And I'm going to get into now, what I think the real problem is, because it's not about politics.

[00:07:17] It's about my side, your side, thinking, which has become a big problem in our society these days.

It's natural, it's tribal, but it's also not the most rational way in which to live. It allows fear to get in the way. It cuts you off from seeing nuance and actual arguments on the other side that might be relevant and actually credible. It leads to hypocrisy very easily, creating a more toxic culture.

[00:07:48] We lawyers are trained not to do this. This is where that training comes into play, to step back, analyze, proactively identify the other side's arguments, to be the adult in the room.

[00:08:03] Which leads me into what you can actually do. I've already hinted at it here for obvious reasons.

Can You Really Make A Difference?

Now I do know you might be thinking, okay, this all feels a bit too much. How can I possibly change society? Heather, short answer. Well, you don't. At least not immediately. But you can be an agent of change regardless, because people do look up to you and you can showcase to others how to be better.

Look, this is what you can control. You, not other people.

[00:08:35] And the thing I would argue is staying silent. Because what I have found in talking to people about this, and this is why I'm here talking about it today, despite being scared to death about how everybody's gonna react to today's episode, I'm done with being silent.

A lot of us feel the same way. We see the nuance, but we're not speaking up enough.

I am ready to walk the talk more fully. Will you join me?

[00:09:02] Because staying silent isn't the answer. Silence, it eats at your soul. It allows the thing you don't like to become more accepted, which eventually means it could become acceptable by society's standards.

Silence isn't safe, it's complicit. This is about who do you want to be?

Also, quick note, you do not have to agree with everything I have to say today, but what I am asking of you is to consider alternatives, to step back from my side, your side thinking. You are trained for this.

[00:09:39] This mindset is truly toxic and it's infecting not just our politics, but other areas of our life as well. A healthy society cannot exist with this mindset in play. Our leaders, our media, our social platforms, they reflect the collective character of our society. And right now, that mirror is showing us something ugly.

But I am here today because I do feel there is real hope in those conversations I've been having with people. It gives me real hope. I know there are others that see the nuance, that see the toxicity, that are wanting to have these conversations.

It's time to be a part of that. That's what I'm asking of you. I know it's hard. It's about courage.

Again, the question to ask yourself is, who do you want to be?

So now to the action items.

How Walk The Talk (& Make A Difference)

#1: Think like a lawyer.

[00:10:38] What can you actually do? Well, number one, start using your legal training to ensure you don't fall prey to the my side, your side thinking, step back. Analyze both sides proactively. Aim to understand those with very different politics and viewpoints.

Now note, this isn't necessarily for their benefit. This is for your benefit. It actually has a big benefit on your own mental health when you do this. I've noted, it has a benefit for you, for your family, and for society as a whole. That's the real point.

It will also enable you to see nuance. It will help you to understand other people's viewpoints better, which, by the way, helps you to get more clear about what you believe and why. May not change your opinion, but it will help you make a better argument for your own case.

It's also going to help you to see that not everybody, and in fact, very few people on the quote, unquote, other side are actually bad actors. They might be misguided. But here's the deal...

You likely also are in some ways because again, there's nuance in the world. Be more open to that. And remember, understanding is not the same thing as acceptance or agreement.

[00:11:55] Now, just note, when I talk about bad, you know, not everybody, in fact, few on the other side are bad. I'm talking about mostly other human beings that aren't in office, but there are people in office too. And I think when you start to have these conversations and you start to open up, you'll start to see that maybe there's somewhere that we could have more agreement, somewhere where we can make a difference, a starting point, even if it's a small sliver that gives hope, because that's how we actually start to change the culture, make things less toxic, take ourselves off of the ledge and maybe end up finally having some leaders worthy of respect.

So this is something that I proactively decided to do back when I had cancer. I had a lot of time on my hands during that year, to be honest with you. Obama was in the midst of his reelection campaign and things were frankly pretty toxic on both sides. Also with the my side, your side, thinking this is not new, it just keeps getting worse.

[00:12:58] I started to realize that maybe the other side had some points here and there. I also started to realize that maybe my quote unquote side, which by the way, if you haven't figured out, my side's more small "c" conservative and libertarian with a classical liberal bent. And I don't think I have a side anymore because I don't see that anywhere.

 Like in our politics right now. There's definitely a lot of people, I think in that category, we're in the messy middle maybe. But I started to realize that I had been prey to my side, your side thinking, which had impacted my ability to see nuance, which had impacted my ability to understand other viewpoints and which had impact my ability to actually be open to a different way of doing and thinking.

[00:13:47] That benefited me greatly from a mental health perspective, from an understanding perspective, it just, it gave me new hope because it was what changed within me that enabled me to not just be more open and to having more conversations, but to then seeing there were common grounds where we could meet with people that had very different viewpoints as far as the role government should play.

Because at the end of the day we wanted a lot of the same results. We just had different ways of getting there. It was eye-opening for me.

[00:14:22] Now, I will note this doesn't mean that you're going to agree with everybody you talk to. It doesn't mean you have to give ridiculous points and arguments any leverage. What it does mean is don't assume.

#2: Hold "your side" to the highest standards

The second point. If you have a quote-unquote side, and most of us do, be sure to hold yours to the highest standard, even higher than you hold the other side.

So this includes pointing out selective outrage when your side does it.

[00:14:53] And here's the why.

When we only speak up when it's politically convenient, we lose credibility and the moral authority of our profession erodes. The moral authority of your voice erodes. This is going to give you more leverage when pointing out the other side's problems.

I also want to be clear about something. I'm not saying that no one is in the wrong. Yes, point out the wrongs, including on the other side, but start with yours first.

[00:15:26] This will help you not fall prey to ends justifies the means thinking and it will also ensure you have a much better argument on your side.

At the end of the day, it's important to remember that nuance exists. Look for it, find it, don't assume it doesn't. It also helps you to remember that two wrongs never make a right and that the ends never justify any means.

In fact, when the means are corrupt, they're not going to produce the result you claim to want.

Final and honestly. Biggest point of all, both sides are wrong and do wrong. Both sides are right and do right just on different things. And sometimes there's no obvious quote-unquote right. Stop making the other side of your belief automatically wrong.

[00:16:15] For example. I think I've talked about this before, but it's worth noting here. Fairness versus freedom. The two don't necessarily go together very well.

One of my biggest top values is freedom. Freedom over fairness wins every single time. Some people in my past have, before they've gotten to know me, before they've understood why freedom is so important. Important to me, what I mean by freedom and how, how and why it trumps quote unquote fairness. Have assumed that means I'm cold, heartless, don't care about others. Couldn't be further from the truth. But my past has shaped me.

[00:16:52] The way I grew up shaped me. I felt caged for many years of my life. I hated that. That's where the value of freedom came. It's why it trumps fairness whenever the two don't align.

#3: Talk politics with others (who don't think like you), often

[00:17:08] Final strategy. This would be the third. Start talking to other people about what you believe and why, and asking others what they believe and why. Especially those who don't believe what you do. Do not shy away from this.

We've long said. I mean I grew up this way. Don't talk politics, don't top talk religion unless you know the other person believes what you believe. I actually think this is part of the problem, that this we can't have worse advice than this.

We need to be better about talking to people openly with an air for understanding. And I think part of the problem now is we can now curate the content. We get to be completely and utterly, or at least very much aligned with how we already think what we already believe. That's a mistake. We see only what we already believe, or at least primarily.

[00:18:02] This makes us more ignorant, less able to see the nuance that really exists, less able to identify when our side is in the wrong or doing something improper.

Get out there, find ways to engage with others who think differently.

I always like to think back to Scalia and Ginsburg and how close they were, how good of friends they were despite their very obvious differences in politics and how they went about even analyzing cases and the law. And yet they cared about each other despite those differences. They obviously talked about stuff. They obviously went there. They were open to listening and to understanding. It didn't necessarily change their beliefs. I think too many people are afraid it's going to change your beliefs. It's probably not.

[00:18:54] It will make your beliefs stronger. It will make your arguments better and more credible.

Again, this isn't really about politics. This isn't just about one president or any particular political party. It's about who you want to be and how you want to help shape the world.

I hope today's episode got you thinking for the better. Hope it didn't make anybody too mad.

[00:19:20] Again, this marks the end of season four with a bit of a bang. We will be back with season five this fall, but in the meantime, don't forget that there are many episodes out there that can help that you probably haven't listened to or that might be more relevant to you now, so be sure to check them out.

Also, I am not going anywhere so be sure you're following me on LinkedIn. I will put a link in the show notes so you can easily do so and be sure that you are signed up for Success Without Sacrifice, my weekly newsletter. It is where you will get proven anti hustle strategies every single week for growing a values based law practice on your terms.

Bye for now. We will see you this fall.