[00:00:50] Heather: Well, hello. Hello everyone. Welcome to Life and Law. This is your host, Heather Molder, and today I want to introduce you to Keith Ross Rollins. Keith is an IP attorney with Sheep and Stone who works closely with clients to identify their IP assets, secure protection of those assets, manage portfolios, and defend assets against unauthorized use and infringement. Keith also happens to be a client and I brought him on to showcase a couple of things.

Number one, why sometimes making partner where you are isn't the right thing and why hearing you're not going to be put up can be a gift instead of a bad thing. Number two, that your success path isn't likely to be perfectly linear, despite the fact that we often assume it should be, and why it often actually should not be linear because it is better for you. And then number three, how quickly you can go from you're not going to be a partner at this law firm to equity partner at the Perfect Fit law firm. Welcome, Keith.

 

[00:01:53] Keith: Thank you, Heather. Pleasure to be here. I'm excited to be on this podcast. Thank you for inviting me.

 

[00:01:58] Heather: I'm excited to have you on. So we started working together. I had to look this up because I knew it was a while back, back in October of 2020 and we haven't worked 100% the entire way. We've had breaks we've had, but we've worked on and off for the past five plus years.

 

And when you first came to me, you had very recently, I believe, been notified that you were not being put up for partner.

 

And it was becoming clear that this probably wasn't the place where you were going to be making partner or you even wanted to make partner.

 

And that kind of shocked you because you had been there a long time, I think nine years at that point, nine or more years.

 

You had been one of the highest associate billers, if not the highest, for a number of years. You always got great reviews. So this was very shocking to you.

 

And I wanted to get into this specifically because, number one, this is actually more common than a lot of lawyers realize. And when the lawyers who end up in this position, there's a lot of shame associated with it, which there really shouldn't be because it is common and it isn't necessarily a negative on you personally. It just means you're not in the right fit place.

 

So I wanted to talk about your experience and maybe what you learned from going through that.

 

[00:03:12] Keith: Sure.

 

When you put your heart and soul into something, and there are a lot of us out there that do that.

 

When you have said, I'm doing this for that end goal. Right. Which everyone tells us is to become partnered, that is the indicator of success.

 

That to have some sort of indication or notice or something like that. And I didn't receive like an official notice, like an email, but things happened to where it was very clear that I was not being considered for partner and that I would not be.

 

It was impossible. You know, you do the math. I need these votes. This and that. I was not going to be considered for partner.

 

That. It's almost, it's.

 

You have a lot of emotion and you have a lot of letdown and you hit the nail on the head and saying, shame. I was ashamed that I did not politically posture myself better or that all of these other people had been doing that the whole time and I had no idea they were doing it. I felt ashamed that I was not that intelligent, if you will, to have been doing that and that I couldn't just say, oh, I was the best at X, Y and Z or this and that. You know, all of those metrics that they talk about you in your annual review, that's not all the metrics that it takes to be partner.

 

[00:04:29] Heather: That is true. That is true.

 

[00:04:31] Keith: And so I think that sort of having that reality shattered, if you will, I don't know if that's the right word.

 

That was a defining moment in saying, do I really want to be here anymore?

 

Do I want to do this anymore? Is what I'm doing going to make me happy if I do it somewhere else? Or do I need to completely just change everything now? When that happened to me, we happened to also be coming out of or still in the pandemic. So we were all going through all of these things. So I was perhaps, perhaps lucky that this happened at that time because we were already having other things in our lives uprooted through change. And so this was just one more of those things in my life at that time that happened. And Perhaps almost helped me make that change because I wanted to be loyal. I didn't want to be seen as disloyal to the people that I was working with, because loyalty is a core value of mine. By the way, Heather, you helped me identify core values at that time.

 

That. That's also something important to mention. Right. Is that once I identify those core values, what are these core values?

 

Respect was one of them. And that was definitely being violated by not being considered as a partner in my world.

 

Right, right. And that became then the first stepping stone to really think about, okay, no, this is not right for me anymore because I will. That will always be violated as long as I'm here.

 

And so then that leads to exploring options.

 

[00:06:23] Heather: Yeah. So we'll get into that in a second. So I want to make a couple of notes here.

 

I've said this before, but Keith is a perfect. You're a perfect example of and proof of what I've said.

 

It is not just about your billables. It is not just about what you're collecting from your billables. It is not just about how good of a lawyer you are from a skills perspective. When most firms are looking at you for partnership. There is a lot more to it.

 

And I don't, you know, the playing the political game, like building the right relationships, making sure you get seen by the right people, making sure you have sponsors, not just mentors. That's a big one. And I think that's one that a lot of people miss. They think their mentors are sponsors and they're not. Because your sponsor has to be politically powerful and willing to go to bat for you and have the power to actually be heard and listened to.

 

All those things have to be done in order to be considered for partnership.

 

And a lot of lawyers don't realize it because the fact is nobody ever tells. You kind of have to figure it out.

 

And many people don't because it is so, you know, everybody's so hush, hush and quiet about it. Nobody ever says anything. And what they do say over and over again is, bill, bill, Bill, keep your head down, do good work. It'll get rewarded. Which is the bare minimum. That's the first checkbox. But there's a bunch of others. And if that's all you're doing, you're not checking those other boxes. So it is this, like, place of shame that we all feel when we get there and we realize, oh, they didn't tell me everything and I should have figured this.

 

It is hard to figure out, which is why people like me are out there saying, no, no, no, you need to know this because they're not going to tell you.

 

So I just wanted to note that. And you know, I know how many people are in this position, because I work with people in this position who are like, what? What? How is it that I can't make it based on this? And then the other thing that I would say is the values piece.

 

So one thing I remember very distinctly is when we started working around your values so that we could figure out, okay, what would be the proper next steps? Because one of the things I caution my clients, when they come to me and say, I know I'm not in the right place, I'm like, okay, that's good that you know that. But we don't know what the right place is yet. So let's. Let's do some background work before you jump, because you don't want to jump to the wrong place, at least in a place that's not strategically the right next step.

 

So we do some of that work. And for you, it was a lot of values work.

 

I actually remember very distinctly you came to me at one point saying something like, what's the point of all the values work? It's interesting, but I don't see how it's practical.

 

And then not long after, I think it was maybe our next session after it was like a complete 360of, wait a second, I have this new opportunity now, and I can see where the values might come into play. So I don't know if you remember that. Do you remember that?

 

[00:09:14] Keith: I don't remember that exact thing, but that sounds like something I would say.

 

And I. And I. And I will say I. I do remember also thinking it's hard to identify exactly what your values are and what you mean by them. But also you have to realize that your values may change over time, but also they may change the more you think about them and more you give definition to them, that some can collapse into a single term, and then you can add your another fifth value that's important to you or things like that. So going through that whole process of just defining to yourself what is it that I value and have it encompass perhaps your business objectives, but your personal objectives, if you want, or are those mutually exclusive values? Do you have a different set of values for your business life and a different set of values for your personal life, or are they all one in the same?

 

It's just such, at least for me in my story, it was such a crucial thing for me to do. Because why?

 

Because I didn't want to end up in a place just like where I was. And I don't mean in a law firm sense, but in a mental place to where I was unhappy and I didn't know why.

 

And that was extremely critical and valuable in understanding the values that way, where whatever decision I made, I could always measure that decision based on those values and how well that environment and my feelings and my things fit to the values that I had said. And I think that for the most part, they've stayed the same.

 

For the most part. Perhaps I define them differently now than I did five years ago, but they are core values. They shouldn't change, but they can be dynamic.

 

[00:11:06] Heather: Yeah. I like to tell my clients, like, your. Your core values don't tend to change a lot as far as the words that you use or how you. The core definition.

 

But there's a. But they can be applied a little bit differently, and they can morph a little bit. Like, there are some changes based on your stage of life, because your stage of life has different needs, has different, you know, circumstances and priorities within it, which can change how you prioritize your values and a little bit of how you want to define them in the moment.

 

And the other thing I would say is experience over time changes you. Right. So it changes absolutely. Not just how you experience things, but it. You learn from it, you grow from it. And so you add to those definitions, you revise them a little bit, and they're still your core values. But they do. They don't. It's not like you do a 360, but they do change a little bit over time. And so I always encourage my clients to at least annually go back, take a look, make sure they understand, and they ground themselves within them and they redefine them. Even. You don't have to just use the definition that you started with several years ago. It's a good thing to kind of look at it anew and reprioritize. Well, which ones are most important right now? Because although they're all important, they can buck up against each other a little bit at times. And so you have to prioritize them. Which ones are most important to me right now or which ones are most important to me in respect of this big decision?

 

[00:12:42] Keith: Absolutely. And I think also another something that just popped into my mind is having them say, you get to a third quarter where I'm not happy. Why am I not happy? Let me look at my core values. What went on here? That is being. Is anything Being violated. And usually you can pinpoint something and once you pinpoint that, you can do something about it, at least for the things that are in your control. And so it's a very powerful tool.

 

[00:13:10] Heather: It is a very powerful tool. And thank you for mentioning that because I think sometimes we don't think about this. You know, every time we get into this space of something is really off, what's going on, it is a great time to check, check back in with your values, because oftentimes that's at least a portion, if not a lot, large portion of what's going on. And it helps you to identify not just what's going on, but what are the solutions available to me based on that. So, okay, so you got to the point where you knew you needed to leave and you did leave and you found your next step and you moved to a new firm that was very small, but promised partnership if you were able to showcase some things.

 

Before we started hitting recording, you said it wasn't necessarily metrics. They wanted to see certain, like more internal growth, I think, from you. You joined as a senior attorney and you knew there was a little bit of work and that we work together. That's when we started working together in the business coaching realm to help grow your book and work on the leadership piece. And when I say leadership, I don't always just mean, you know, leadership of others. That is part of it, but it also is self leadership because you can't be a good leader if you aren't self leading as well, which is about, you know, self awareness, self responsibility, the all the EQ stuff that I've talked about before.

 

So tell us a little bit about kind of that transition for you and you know, what you feel like it took personally to get to the place where you would be considered for partner.

 

[00:14:44] Keith: So let's call this time 0 of the transition right from where I was to where I wanted to be.

 

And I was very blessed, if you want to call it that, very lucky to have found an environment that was a positive environment for what I needed, that allowed me to take on responsibility for some clients of others while building my practice.

 

And so it was just a great place to implement the core values with a positive mindset, with a little bit of hope that things would work out. And I'm telling you, at time zero, I had nothing. I had no book. I was completely loyal to my other firm. Okay, I had zero.

 

So that's when I started changing because I had to in order to grow. That's because that's What I wanted to grow my practice. And so right then the behaviors change. You say, well, what do I need to do? I need to start talking to people. I mean, it's literally communication and relationships. Right. And so you do what you can. You can't talk to the same people every day. But I remember we built a spreadsheet, all my contacts. And this is wisdom from Heather Mulder coaching, that that helps you keep track. When did I contact that person? What did I say? What are some notes about that? And then you can have a list of people and then you can prioritize those people.

 

What is the chance that they'll actually give me work?

 

What is the chance that they might refer me? And so you can have these different sort of scopes of, and expectations for the contacts, but it gives you also goals with each of the contacts. But some people, you just want to stay in touch with them because you're compatible with them.

 

And you never know where your opportunities are going to come from. But the point is, as you have contacts and then you can increase that list more and more as you get more and more comfortable with talking with people. And we should probably put an aside here, is that I'm a bit of an introvert. I'm now probably an extroverted introvert. But that was my part of my change as well as I had to really get out there and advocate for myself. And I think that there is currently a short on LinkedIn going around about the CEO of McDonald's that say the biggest champion in your life is going to be you.

 

[00:17:20] Heather: Yep.

 

[00:17:21] Keith: If you do not advocate for yourself, it's not that other people don't. Won't do it for you. And some people do have those champions and that's. They're blessed to have met those champions. But many people are just concerned and trying to make it themselves and be successful in their own lives. So they may not think about championing you as one of their first activities when they wake up that day. If you can champion yourself, then that is a great step in your success, in your. In your path to success for what you want. And so that in. And how did that manifest itself? It manifested itself in reaching out and talking with people and letting them know, oh, I'm at this other firm, I do not have conflicts like I did at my previous firm.

 

Seriously, I mean it. But. And then the more you talk with people, the more you can realize, oh, I think that they are going to care. They don't really care if I have conflicts because they know I don't but they care if how big is the team or they care.

 

Can we do both?

 

In my world, intellectual property. Can we both do both patents and trademarks or can we provide all intellectual property services? So point being is you get those conversations started and you take notes and then it's sort of a linear. Sorry, it's not non linear, but it's a.

 

What is the right word? A continuous conversation over time.

 

Of course, this was now before we had AI tools to track all of these things, but we now do these things using AI tools and note taking AI tools and things like that. But point being is that there was some sort of synthesis of the conversations being documented that you could go back to every time you contacted that person. And let me tell you, and Heather, you told me this, people will remember that you remember something about them. Oh yes, they will appreciate it. And for some reason I thought the opposite in my mind is just kind of weird in my looking back on my prior self. But I was thinking, oh, they would think that that's too personal personal of a, of a comment for them.

 

And there are lines and things like if you don't want to cross. But point being is that when you remember something about somebody though, that they actually appreciate that.

 

[00:19:40] Heather: Well, it shows you care enough to remember. You care enough to then reach out and ask that that's more authentic. That's, that's, that makes for a much more authentic relationship. Hey, I remember the last time we spoke you mentioned, how did that go? What's going on with that? Like in it also makes for much easier re. Engagement when you lose track of somebody. Like it's. If you have those types of notes on people because it makes it easier than to, oh gosh, it's been a year. I can't believe it. How has this time passed? Things have been crazy. And you go back and you see those notes and you're like, oh, wow, they were going through a major deal or a major case.

 

And I remember they were worried about, well, I'm going to reach out and say, hey, I know that it's been a year. I'm so sorry.

 

As with everybody, life got in the way. But you came to mind the other day and I remember our last conversation and I wanted to reach out about this because I remember you were worried about whatever happened with that.

 

Like, it is that simple.

 

[00:20:41] Keith: It is that simple and people appreciate it.

 

[00:20:44] Heather: Yes.

 

[00:20:44] Keith: And it's not hard to do.

 

[00:20:46] Heather: No, it's not hard to do. And it does show you care authentically. Because if you take the time to do what you need to do to remember and then reach out about it. It actually means you do care. So it's not an inauthentic thing.

 

So, okay, so I'm hearing. But you as an introvert, needed to build up some confidence, needed to learn to get out there and start having those conversations.

 

I think in knowing who you are now, you have learned that introversion is actually a strength if you understand it and know how to utilize it. Because we introverts, I'm an introvert too, Tend to care more about one on one conversations and quickly connect with people in those one on one conversations, which is actually a linchpin of good relationship building. So you can use it to your advantage. I think you learned that over the course of that first two years as you grew your book.

 

And after about two years, you did finally become a member, which was that firm's version of partnership, correct?

 

[00:21:50] Keith: Yes.

 

[00:21:51] Heather: Okay, that's correct.

 

And yet you left soon thereafter.

 

So talk about what happened and why you. You made the difficult decision to leave that firm that gave you so much opportunity.

 

[00:22:05] Keith: It was a difficult decision. I don't want to because it was a positive work environment. I've been looking for a positive work environment for a long time, and I think my practice grew faster than anybody would have expected it to.

 

And I got to a point where I needed more resources than I had access to. And so that sort of. But also I was. An introduction was made, not because I wasn't necessarily looking, but an introduction was made to a partner that is now at the firm that is at the firm that I am now equity partner at.

 

And it.

 

Things just kind of happened organically where I sort of started feeling limited on one side and thinking that it would be a better fit on another side. And it over what is kind of a relatively short period of time, say about six months or maybe three months. I don't really remember exactly, but point being is that it happened.

 

And I wouldn't say it was necessarily like the last move where it was like, I got to a point where I was like, this cannot go on anymore.

 

It was more of a I need this. This situation.

 

It was just a balancing factor and it kind of happened.

 

[00:23:38] Heather: Yeah, I recall it being very. You were getting to a point where you're like, wow, growth is great.

 

[00:23:45] Keith: Yeah.

 

[00:23:45] Heather: But wow, it's almost going too fast. We don't have the resources here to backstop everything. And clients are wanting more services than this firm can provide. All of that was happening and then you got this introduction and it was like, okay, wait, is this kismet? Like something? It's like, absolutely.

 

[00:24:05] Keith: And that's what I mean. That's what I mean by the organic side of it. It was sort of like I was at a smaller firm, IP specific.

 

And this, the firm that I'm at now is a general practice firm with an IP group about as big as the firm is that I was at. But there were more people at the current firm that do exactly what I do. There's a few more, not a whole lot more. So conflicts weren't an issue, and it just sort of happened. And. But guess what? I have been. After I made that move, I was able to take on matters not necessarily for myself to do, but for other partners to do that were not in my practice area. And my practice grew even more after that.

 

[00:24:46] Heather: That's an important component. So a couple of things I want to highlight here, and then I want to ask you a question about the move and something that people need to understand when they do move as a partner with a book and kind of the work involved. So. But first, one of the things that all attorneys have to really figure out. There are pros and cons to every single possibility. Being at a tiny firm has its pros. Where you were, it was more entrepreneurial, it was very supportive. It was a really great place to practice with others. And you had a mentor there. I mean, I know it was just, it was a good spot, yet you could not grow beyond a certain point there. And you knew it and you were, you were already kind of getting up to that level of, I don't think I can go any further unless we hire a team. And even then, I can't go any further than this because a lot of the requests, I'm starting to gather questions, I'm starting to get, relate to work I don't do and nobody else here does.

 

Maybe I need to go somewhere else so that I can grow my business in a way where I'm not having to do all of the work.

 

And so, like, you know, there's pros and cons. And every attorney needs to figure out what are the right trade offs. I talk about this all the time. Every decision has trade offs, good and bad, and you ultimately need to go through it with open eyes, identify the pros and cons, figure out your trade offs on both sides, and decide, well, which one makes the most sense.

 

Based on the practice I have and the practice I want to build. That's it. And that's pretty much what you ended up Having to do is you had to make that decision, and it had to be done pretty quickly.

 

Now, when it comes to the actual move, I very distinctly remember the work you had to put in, because it's not just you prove up. Here's my current book.

 

Like, there was a lot of proving up. Here's my current book. Here's how I did last year.

 

Here's where I'm where I am now and what my projections are for the remainder of this year. So there are projections involved, but then you also had to do. And here are my projections that I feel comfortable with over the next 18 months to two years, given the growth opportunities with this firm. Because you wanted to showcase, you always want to put your best foot forward, right? Here is why I want to join. Here is what I know I can't do here because it's too small.

 

Here's how I know I can, I believe, not know, because there's always, you know, the things we can't control. But here's how I believe I can grow this book over the next couple of years, given your resources.

 

And that's pretty stressful and a lot of someone.

 

[00:27:27] Keith: Yeah. So for someone like me to say that I'm gonna achieve this number in three years when I haven't ever done it before, it's very.

 

I think for some people it's very normal, or they have no problem saying they're going to get to there, and they just have confidence that they're going to figure it out.

 

I'm more like, what have I done? What is my trajectory now and what is reasonable upon that trajectory?

 

And I'm not going to include any through your. Your numbers at year three. That would be me getting lucky and getting $1 million litigation for some reason that I have no idea that I would expect to get right. So it was very hard for me at first to project into the future because, remember, I started at zero.

 

I know.

 

And so it was very hard for me at that time to look into the future and sort of say, oh, yeah, everything's going to be fine. And guess what? It's going to be double.

 

Which, by the way, is what happened. But it was hard for me to do that. And by the way, again, you helped me in coaching on that, and I appreciate you doing that. And it's always good to have that skill and look at it kind of like a core value. How am I doing? Am I. Has something changed based on my project? Have I done something differently? Or am I just complete? Is that projection now?

 

Do I need to replace that projection with another projection based on something that has happened. Maybe a client came in and now you're really going to be focused on a big huge portion of practice that is not. That is going to take your time away from maybe getting another case of this different type you were planning on getting. So point being is that it's a very valuable tool.

 

[00:29:14] Heather: Yeah, I mean, it's funny when people are trying to make come up with projections, you want to be reasonable, yet you also want to make sure you like, don't go too conservative because you got to make the sell for yourself, but in a way that doesn't put you under improper pressure. So there is a fairly fine line there when you're doing that. I think what I would say is you want to give a range of projections.

 

Here's where I believe I can really make it just if I. If I were just to grow this business, here's what I feel confident in and here's the range for that. And then in addition to with your resources, here's what I also feel we can do. But I will need your help.

 

I will need the help of other partners. Like some of this is on them because I can bring the people to you, but those other partners have to sell themselves appropriately as well. And so you kind of couch it and cage it in a way where it's like, I'm not promising you, but I'm promising you the opportunity. And I think we can really grow it here. There is an art to that.

 

And it's basically you want them to hear, I am going to be a good partner. I am going to cross collaborate. There is a real opportunity here, but you got to play ball too. And some of it is luck so that they don't place all the pressure just on you.

 

[00:30:29] Keith: That's right. And I think that when you're doing those projections and looking at that firm, perhaps that might be a new fit. You look at those things. Can I do. I believe that I can do that at that firm based on what they are telling me. And I think also, let's get back to the transition. So now we're in year two of me transitioning over to. I'm now interviewing these firms. They're interviewing me, but I'm also interviewing them two years prior. Keith. Nuh. That was more. I didn't have the confidence to think that I was interviewing them.

 

Point being is like I could take it or leave it. Right. Because now I have a practice. Yes, that is my practice. I built it in my mind a lot of leverage. I had a lot of control.

 

Now also, though, you mentioned something. Nothing turns out perfect. There's going to be mad with you if you leave. There's going to be people that are loyal to you. There's going to be clients. And by people, I mean clients. There's going to be clients that are saying, whatever we need to do, just let us know. There are clients that are going to say, I'm surprised that you would do this. Why would you do this? Don't do it.

 

And so it will not be perfect, and it will be extremely. It can be stressful for some. There can be some stress points. But the point is, is you have to believe and have the confidence that you're gonna be successful in that new place.

 

[00:31:56] Heather: Yeah. And you have to expect that everything won't work out perfectly. But also, on the other hand, oftentimes new opportunity, you can't also project all the opportunities that are created in new situations like this. So it kind of comes out in the wash as long as you' the work.

 

[00:32:14] Keith: That is a great point, Heather, because that is true in my case as well. And so you can have a scarcity mindset or an abundance mindset or a combination of both with caution. Right. And if you believe you're truly going to a place with more opportunity, then your projections are probably going to be low because you are just going to get that stuff by being busy, by being, being open for business, by doing work, by being a referral partner, by doing work from other referral partners, your firm. It's just going to be an explosive situation.

 

And so you've got to hopefully find a place where that can be explosive for you.

 

[00:32:56] Heather: Yes. So that gets back into the right culture fit for you. If you are in the right firm that aligns to your values, that allows you to fully be you and build the practice you ultimately want, you are more likely to be more successful and more quickly because you feel supported and are supported in the right ways in a way that fits you.

 

So talk about that a little bit. How important, I'm guessing, in fact. I know, but you. You looked at your values again in this transition and ensured that they were really in alignment from a culture standpoint.

 

[00:33:32] Keith: Absolutely. I reassessed the values.

 

I reassessed what my core values were. I checked them, and based on the input that I had, I assessed whether those values would be met or not.

 

And in the end, though, you still have some uncertainty that you're not in control of a lot of things that happen. You're not in control of other people, but you are in control of yourself. And so what ended up for me, though, is going to affirm that, again, was very entrepreneurial. So I was at least in a lot of control of my own practice when that happened. At least I can control myself and how I respond to it and how I manage the way I do things in my practice.

 

[00:34:18] Heather: So that's an important piece, I think, understanding your values well enough to know what questions to ask, how to vet people to get a better understanding of what's the real culture here, what are the processes, what's the structural aspect of how they run this firm? So as to know, is this a fit for me? Because I've said this again, what is toxic to one person is not toxic to another. And what is great for one person can be very toxic for someone else. And so it's really important to dig in and get those questions answered. And you don't know 100%, but if you have enough of these interviews and you visit and you ask the right questions and you talk through things and scenarios, you can get a pretty good sense of whether the overall firm culture is going to be a fit for you.

 

And so you made the move because you decided, okay, this is a good fit. I believe I will have control over my practice, which is preeminent for me. It's very entrepreneurial. I need that.

 

It has ability for cross collaboration, which is great for the growth I want.

 

Why not? And I do remember us talking at the time about it seems so quick after just joining another firm and how progression isn't always linear.

 

So I wanted to note that I remember when you went to the tiny firm initially saying, look, I understand that you might think this is the right fit forever, and it might be, but it also might not be. But regardless of that, it seems like the right fit to open up the opportunities and the door that you need to move to that next level and then we'll see where we are and re think, reevaluate.

 

And it came faster than we either either of us expected. But that did happen.

 

And I wanted to point that out because I think a lot of people think that that next step has to be the exact right place for the rest or the majority of the rest of their career. And that is just not necessarily true.

 

As long as you're doing things strategically and there's a purpose for it and you get something out of it. It was the right step for then, but it may not be the right place forever.

 

Do you have anything to add to that?

 

[00:36:27] Keith: I will Say at the time of leaving from that firm where I was not made partner to that smaller firm, I thought that was the forever at that time.

 

And it just.

 

Things changed quickly within two years. But then this opportunity presented itself and that was really like, is this opportunity really better? Because it seems like it is. Yeah. Every firm you go to, hopefully you at the time, you think it's the forever firm. But yeah, I think then your words that you had said prior really resounded with me, and I was like, maybe not maybe, but I think Heather was right that this was a stepping stone on to perhaps for what I hope is my forever firm.

 

[00:37:14] Heather: And I just want to note that sometimes we coaches can see something in our clients.

 

[00:37:19] Keith: And.

 

[00:37:19] Heather: And this isn't just coaches. Other people see more in you than you yourself see. And this is. This is the true for everyone. We often don't see our biggest, like, where we're really going and the capabilities that we have. We see only a tiny potential of that others can see a lot more. And so sometimes that's okay to, like, just trust in other people and allow them to see that and. And not have to make excuses or say, oh, no, no, no, that's too. No, just let it be and be. Be a little, you know, okay.

 

Other people see this in me.

 

[00:37:53] Keith: That's.

 

[00:37:54] Heather: That's kind of cool. I don't yet, but that's okay. Maybe I'll get there.

 

[00:37:57] Keith: I will say be. Being a partner and saying the buck stops, you know, the responsibility stops with me. No one else is reviewing this work and taking that ownership was a bit like becoming a parent and being.

 

Hearing the being called dad for the first time, being called partner because it'd been so elusive for so long in my career, it was almost like weird hearing my name or people addressing me in that capacity.

 

However, part of the transformation is then you just are that you authentically are the embodiment of what it takes, at least in the firms that you are in, that are in the right place of what that is.

 

And then you look back and you say, I look back now, Heather, and I'm like, I'm not totally sure. There's not one day where it was like, I can say this. The switch happened. It just happened over time, as you get do it longer and longer, then you become more confident in the judgments that you make, and you become quicker in the judgments that you make, and you learn to be skeptical in the right situations and things like that. And suddenly you're just in the business of doing the practice of law, which Actually is what a partner is.

 

Right. We do the billable work, but we're also in the business of it. And I think yes, that might sum it up.

 

[00:39:27] Heather: Then you step up into the equity level, which is more responsibility and taking even more ownership.

 

And you are now there. You were recently promoted to equity.

 

Tell me a little bit about the transformation you feel you had to make over the last couple of years to get to this point.

 

[00:39:52] Keith: I.

 

So my honest answer is that I can't tell you that I'm a lot different than I was two years ago, except that I'm more confident in myself. But I'm not sure that's. I think it was more metric based in my case. And so I really don't feel that there's a difference in person.

 

[00:40:15] Heather: I would argue with you on that. So I think yes, it's metrics based. We all have to get certain metrics to be like.

 

Regardless of what firm you're in, if you have a non equity partner and an equity partner track to get to equity, there are certain metrics you must have and oftentimes for a couple of years in a row before you are considered. That being said, you almost never get those metrics without that confidence piece that you talked about.

 

And people will not see you as a full out partner without that confidence piece. And so I think that is the most important thing. It all starts there and that is confidence.

 

[00:40:54] Keith: Even in the face of challenge to where you will doubt yourself or your loyalty to the firm or the resolve you have for your clients, but you will just not be easily pushed by challenges because guess what, that's the name of the game. People that other people, opposing counsel, whatever market forces are always going to challenge something. But if you can keep your resolve, have the confidence to use your core values to make decisions that benefit everybody. That is what firms look for in equity partners.

 

[00:41:34] Heather: I would absolutely agree. And I would just say, I like to call it getting comfortable with discomfort because you're going to be uncomfortable, you're going to feel stress and pressure and overwhelm. Sometimes that doesn't change, but it's more about being able to step back in those moments and go, hmm, okay, I've done this before.

 

I trust in myself enough to make good decisions. I trust in myself enough to be able to reach out to the resources, people support. Whatever it is I need to go through these times, I do it and I move forward. And it still is uncomfortable and sometimes we still feel some stress. It doesn't go away, but we get comfortable. We trust in ourselves enough to know that we'll be okay.

 

And, yes, that, to me, is what true confidence is.

 

[00:42:23] Keith: So there's a book I read, and I had a mentor that told me about the book that's called the Miracle Equation. And there are two things it talks about the miracle equation. One is the extraordinary effort, and the other is unwavering faith. And if it's hard to have both at all times, however, through challenge, if you can have the faith to get through the challenge and that your extraordinary effort will result in success, then you will be successful. And I think that that is perhaps a theme in anything we do in the practice of law, is to have those two things. Try and have those two things, no matter what challenge you're going through, and the people, that perhaps people will notice those things as well. And I think, though, if you talk about those things, when people come to you and they are doubting themselves, I. It's actually on my wall. I point to it and I say, let's go back to this. And I. I don't think you're having the faith right now, so why should you have faith? And then I re. Center everything about, let's. This is fine. And so you have a belief, right? And you have a strong belief that you can lead people in the right direction. And in the end, that is perhaps a core value of people for some people, is they at work, that they want to know that their leaders have their best interest in their mind.

 

[00:43:49] Heather: Awesome. Okay, so I think this is a good place to stop.

 

Before I let you go, is there any. Any last words that you would like to share for people out there?

 

[00:44:00] Keith: I would like to say how thankful I am for Heather and her coaching that she's given me over time because I've needed it critically at critical times, and she's been there.

 

And I don't think I would have gotten to where I am without having her as my coach. So I highly recommend that if you are listening to this podcast and use at any point, Think that's me that you need to contact. Heather.

 

[00:44:31] Heather: Well, you're very sweet. Thank you. I did not ask for you to do that.

 

[00:44:35] Keith: Did not ask for me. This is what. How I genuinely feel about Heather. So thank you, Heather.

 

[00:44:42] Heather: Well, thank you for joining us. I do think that your story will resonate with a lot of people, and what I want everybody to get out of it the most is when you hear or know, okay, not partnership material here. That doesn't mean you're not partnership material. It means you're in the wrong fit place. It is time to start figuring out what is it that you actually want? How do your values align to where you want to go and finding that right fit place for you.

 

And I know it's possible.

 

It is possible. Keith is a perfect example of that. And just five years later, he is now an equity partner at a perfect fit law firm, practicing quite happily. So thank you so much for coming to share your story.

 

[00:45:27] Keith: Thank you.