#226: Making Partner Changes Everything (Even Mentor Relationships)

[00:01:08] Hello. Hello everyone. This is your host, Heather Moulder, and welcome to Life and Law. So today we are going to get into how sometimes, in fact oftentimes, your relationships, especially the closest mentoring relationships you may have had pre-partnership can change post-partnership.

So this happens more than people like to admit or think.

[00:01:36] And in fact, I've seen it to be quite common. And there are some real reasons for this, to be honest with you. So we are going to go deep into the why behind it. If you have been a longtime listener, you probably know that I have addressed this a little bit, in past episodes. In fact, I think last season I had an episode that talked about all of the different things that happen that change for you when you reach partnership. And a lot of that was around the obligations and the responsibilities and the things you need to be doing differently, and the mindset shifts that you need. And I did mention this in there, but today I want to take a deeper dive because:

A. this happened to me and it was pretty devastating and

B. I see this all the time.

And I will note this for anybody who is not yet a partner but is getting close to partnership is going to be put up in the next, say two to three years. This is something you need to be on the lookout for because sometimes the shift can start before you're actually promoted, once it becomes clear that you are going to be promoted or it gets closer to promotion and it seems like it's going to happen.

And maybe you're distancing yourself from and I wouldn't say distancing, but you're doing other things with other partners because you need to. To make partnership, because you need to have more relationships than the one main mentor you've had for so many years.

It can start to happen then.

[00:03:07] So any of you who are thinking about partnership, getting close to partnership, or those of you who have recently been promoted, whether it's this year, last year, or even the year before, and has started to experience this, has recently experienced this, or are worri about experiencing this today, is for you.

Why Mentor Relationships Change After Making Partner

You Didn't Do Anything Wrong

[00:03:27] Now, the thing I would note before I get into what's really going on here is I need you to not assume you did something wrong.

Don't blame yourself and don't feel ashamed for what is going on. That is really important because this is common, which means it's not necessarily about you. And in fact, it's probably not about you at all. It's really about the relationship. So let's get into what's going on.

How The Human Brain Works - Dynamics Have Changed

This is about the human brain. So your mentor invested in you, they guided you, they had a role in your success, and now suddenly you're up here.

[00:04:05] So the dynamic has fundamentally changed. And it is normal for them to feel a little bit like they've, quote unquote, lost you. Not literally, but the relationship that they had with you, they are going to need time to digest that, to integrate it into their consciousness, and to figure out what that new relationship looks like. It's honestly a bit of a loss. And the brain needs to mourn a little bit, needs to admit that they feel the way that they feel about the change in the relationship. So that's number one.

Identity Disruption

Number two, there's an identity disruption.

[00:04:46] So a lot of times, people who really champion you, who have been your close mentors for years, some of their identity has been tied to being your mentor. And your success can trigger their own securities. Am I still relevant? What's my new role? How does this work moving forward? So it may not seem rational, but this is how the brain works. It is very, very human.

So it's part of that loss as well. That loss in mourning is this identity disruption that they may be going through.

You Are Changing (As Required), Which Changes the Relationship

Now, the third thing is, and this is really important for you to understand, the you of the partner, of a new partner or the one about to become a partner, you're changing too, right? So you're now required to build your own book. You're now required to create a stronger brand that's built more around you individually. And you're now required to become a stronger leader, to actually lead as a partner. Which means you're required to change, you are going to change. And you are probably already in the midst of changing. You may not even realize it, but you are.

[00:05:56] And these changes change you. How you perceive yourself, how you act, how you show up, which means it's going to, of course, change your relationship with your mentor. So that is going to add to the conflict and to the uncertainty.

You might even be, honestly, you probably are, without even realizing it, naturally pulling away, okay? Because the fact of the matter is, once you're a partner and the buck really stops with you, you've got to pull away. You can't rely on them all the time. And you know this. And so even if you're not proactively, like consciously doing this, subconsciously, you're thinking this way, which is going to have an impact on your relationship, on the reasons you go and talk to your mentor, on how often you go and talk to your mentor about what you're asking your mentor. You're to pull away a little bit and start to try to figure out, okay, this is me, and it stops with me, and what does that mean for what I need to be doing, and how am I going to be more independent and not reliant on others, including that mentor?

[00:07:07] So both of you need to find a new equilibrium. Now, the likelihood here is that they're not bad people right now. How they handle this loss of identity, how they handle the changing relationship, how they handle the mourning piece, might be kind of bad, but it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. So you need to give this a little bit of time and space, let go, Give them the space they need and let things be so that both of you can figure out the new equilibrium and the new relationship moving forward.

That being said, there is a harder truth.

Warning: Sometimes, This is Who Your Mentor Is

[00:07:53] Some people have what I like to say an MO. For some mentors, this is actually a pattern. They're known for it. And you wouldn't have necessarily known this until now, yet you're starting to see it, and now you're starting to hear more about it because you're experiencing it and you're opening up to others about what you're experiencing.

This is really hard, y', all, because although it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, it showcases their habits. And it may mean you will never have a relationship like you had in the past into the future. And in fact, it may cut off your relationship altogether, which is tough.

And it also could mean that they actually aren't the best of people, that they are a very different person than you thought they were. You're seeing a side of them you never saw before and you're never going to be able to unsee it. It's going to change what you think of them. It can feel like a betrayal, it will feel like a loss. There's going to be some grief that you did not expect.

If this is happening to you, it's okay to feel hurt. It's okay to grieve the relationship you thought you had. Be careful.

[00:09:08] And we're going to get into kind of what to do when this happens. Be careful what you say, how you say it. Be careful not to bring all your emotions to your day-to-day, to your relationships with that person, to how you deal with them. You still have to be professional for obvious reasons. But the thing I want to note is that there are two sides to this.

There are the people that are just really good people but having a tough time and they'll come back around. And then there are the people who kind of have an MO for this. And it doesn't necessarily make them bad people, but it does mean that they just in the past, at least, have had a really hard time regaining those good relationships. They take it out on you. They break the relationship off or change it for the worse pretty much forever. And that's a really tough thing to deal with.

Now there are cases, I have seen cases where you find out the person's just terrible, that they just want an associate and never want that person to really grow up and actually work against them. That's pretty rare. That makes for a really not nice, not wonderful person. And that is actually rare.

[00:10:12] But it happens. So you just need to be aware of all of the stuff going on because you want to make sure you don't do anything rash, irrational, in emotion that gets you into trouble.

What To Do When Making Partner Negatively Impacts Your Mentor Relationship(s)

So let's move into what do you do when this happens?

#1: Process Your Feelings (In A Healthy Way)

[00:10:31] So number one, you've got to mourn.

You've got to feel what you feel. You've got to process those feelings. I recommend journaling this out; there's something about putting pen to paper. I've said this before. When we have really deep, strong emotions, it helps to journal out how we're feeling.

• What is it I'm feeling?
• What's behind those feelings?
• What are my beliefs around these feelings?

So that you can become self-aware of where you want to work.

[00:10:59] And then I would say talk to someone outside the firm, not inside the firm. Now, you may have trusted peers that you do talk to within the firm, and that is okay as long as (1) they truly can be trusted, and (2) you're still careful about how you say what you say. It can be about, look, I just feel like there's a loss, our relationship is changing, that kind of thing. I would be careful not, of course, to say too much to people within the firm.

And I also think talking to somebody outside of the firm is really helpful because they don't have all the stuff attached to, you know, their emotions that other people do. Because even somebody who seems like an objective observer, if they're within the firm, they're not as objective as you think.

[00:11:47] They understand the culture, they understand the politics. And that will mean they're not as objective as you think they are. They may be a little more objective than you in this situation, but they're still not 100% objective. So I think it's really, really important to talk to somebody and to make sure that that person you're talking to is somebody you really trust. Somebody who's emotionally very mature and self-aware, but who is outside of your law firm.

Now, obviously, don't lash out, don't be rude, don't talk about them and what's going on too much to colleagues. You want to protect your reputation and your integrity, even though it's hard. So a lot of this, you know, processing your feelings, feel your feelings, this is around making sure you're doing the work and using the right tools, like journaling that I mentioned earlier, like reframing, even outside of the day to day or within yourself in a notebook you can have at work. But you're not going around talking about it and dealing with it all the time at work. You gotta make sure you get yourself to a place where you can still be really professional at work.

#2: Build Your Future (Accepting That The Relationship Has Changed)

[00:12:55] The second thing is you've got to get to a place of acceptance. So step one is so that you can get to this place, as a partner. You need to be able to move forward on your own. You need to be able to build your own book. You need to be able to become your own leader. You need to be able to stand on your own.

So you need to figure out what it is you need to be doing politely and professionally to build that future.

And to do that, you're going to have to let go of the relationship you once had with this person, knowing that if you have one in the future, it will be different. So that's the acceptance piece. Look, I'm hopeful that I can still have a relationship with them. We're trying to figure out what that is and it may take time. So I need to be okay with letting go so that I can move forward.

[00:13:43] And that means setting boundaries. That means, and you know, sometimes those boundaries are. I'm just not going to go to them anymore for asking questions. I am going to limit my, my relationship with them, at least for now, because that's what I need to do for me to be able to show up in this new role to the best of my ability and for me to be able to accept the new reality.

So a quick note about those toxic folks who tend to have an M.O. They're probably going to become that person down the hall who you're polite to, but to whom you never really go to for any brainstorming or any assistance unless absolutely necessary.

So the thing here that you've got to start doing is really making sure you're building new, better relationships right now, starting now. That is part of accepting the new reality.

#3: Enforce Strong Boundaries

[00:14:38] And then I've already hinted at this, but you've got to hold your boundaries, okay? That's the third thing. You need to treat these folks as you would any other partner, not as your mentor, at least for the time being.

And that means having real boundaries. Don't overexplain, don't chase approval. But if they're behaving poorly, you do not have to tolerate it just because of your history with them.

So think about how you would handle those situations with anybody else that you don't have a close relationship with. That's how you handle it from here on out with them, right? So understand your boundaries, make sure they're clearly defined internally and then make sure externally you are actually enforcing them.

Signs Your Mentor Might Be Turning Away From You

[00:15:25] All right, so let's get into the signs that this might be happening because sometimes the shift is really obvious, but other times it's subtle and it happens slowly over time, leaving you wondering whether you're imagining things.

So here are some of those signs to be on the lookout for. That means not only has the relationship started to change, but it's been noticed by the other person and they're having a tough time dealing with it.

Terse Communications

[00:15:53] So number one, short terse communications. Emails that used to be warm and detailed are now one liners or very short and terse answers to questions feel clipped, dismissive or impatient. The tone has shifted and you feel it and you're probably in there going, is this real? Did I imagine it? Probably not. Okay. If you are questioning, then it probably means something has changed. So it's time to step back and look at it a little bit more objectively.

Unwilling to Brainstorm or Assist (as Before)

[00:16:23] The second thing, there's more of an unwillingness to brainstorm or advise. So they may have been your go to for thinking through tricky issues, but now when you ask for input, you get deflection or dismissal or very terse communication.

Example of This (My Story)

So let me give you an example of what happened to me. A few months after I made partner, I went to my former mentor with a client issue. This was his client, by the way. This was an area where he was the expert in the firm. But I had been handling some things for this client for the past year.

[00:16:53] He hadn't handed the client over to me, but I was the go to that they would call when things came up. Well, this issue came up and I didn't have a lot of experience in it, nor was this ever going to be the area that I had a lot of experience with. So I of course went to him to tell him what was going on, asked for his input so we could figure out the best response. And you know what he said to me?

"You're a partner now, Heather. Figure it out."

So that moment told me everything had changed. I will tell you, for several months I had been questioning myself because I did get less emails, I got less invitations to things. I was getting kind of some clipped, dismissive, you know, answers to things I was asking. But it had never just been so obvious. Well, this made it really obvious for me. And in looking back, I probably should have seen that this was coming. I probably should have understood and known what was going on. What did I do in that situation?

Well, I argued with him a little bit. Probably not the best way in emotion. I stormed off. I had to learn very hard from this situation.

I took a couple of minutes to calm down. I emailed him with, you know, a couple of hours later with the here's why. I reached out. Here's what I need from you. This is not my area of expertise. I wish I'd started with that and I did get what I needed from him. And then I slowly but surely turned that client back over to him and made it clear that this was really wasn't my area and this wasn't the area I was growing my practice in so he could take it. And I moved on, basically. And we never had the same relationship after that. So the thing I would say to you is, had I noticed earlier what was going on, I probably could have dealt with this a little bit differently and anticipated this. And it may never have changed a relationship because this person was not a bad person. He just was handling what was going on in the changes in our relationship.

Not in the best way. That unfortunately changed our relationship forever. And what I want you to do is to be aware that this is likely to happen and to start noticing things ahead of time so that you can plan appropriately and not get as emotional as I did in that moment. Because you know what? It would have been nice if I'd given him that time, maybe that year of my first year of partnership, and we'd actually found a way to find a new relationship as, you know, colleagues. And he could have still been my mentor in some ways because he was very senior to me, but it never did come back.\

You're Suddenly Being Excluded

[00:19:25] All right, so the next thing to be on the lookout for is exclusions from conversations or meetings. So maybe you used to be looped in all the time, and now you're finding out about things after the fact.

When it comes to client events and client development, maybe they've started collaborating with others, and they're no longer collaborating with you. Maybe you feel like you've been quietly edged out. Well, there's probably something to it if that is happening.

Passive-Aggressive Behavior Towards You

[00:19:50] And then there's also the passive or backhanded comments. This is more obvious, but sometimes we make excuses for them. We think, oh, they're tired, or they just, you know, they're in the middle of a big case or they just closed a big deal and, you know, they've had a lot going on, so we make excuses for them.

Well, don't do that. If you're getting subtle digs, especially if it's about you, your clients, your decisions, your workload. If you're getting comments that feel like they're minimizing your contributions or questioning your readiness.

If you're getting things like, must be nice to have so much free time now. Or I guess things are different when you're starting out as a partner. You know, kind of stuff. There's something there that's a backhanded, passive aggressive comment. And if that's not like them, then you've got to know, okay, they're not handling this change well. And this is a sign.

Avoidance

[00:20:39] The next thing is avoidance. They're suddenly too busy to grab lunch or coffee. Hallway conversations that used to happen naturally now feel forced or don't happen at all. And they're forced because you're forcing them; you're no longer on their radar the way you once were.

Trust Your Instincts

When all these things happen, your gut is telling you something is off. Maybe you can't quite put your finger on it, but the relationship feels different. Maybe you're second guessing yourself, wondering what you did wrong.

[00:21:07] What I would say to you is, trust your instincts. If it feels off, it probably is. Step back and look at it objectively. Talk to somebody outside of the firm about what's going on and what they think. And then go back to what I said around. Look, mourn, accept the new reality and hold your boundaries while waiting for them to figure this out for themselves. Because you can't do the work for them. This is really important.

[00:21:41] You can do the work for you. You can mourn the relationship that is changing and maybe losing. You can put boundaries in place. You can let things go. You can move on and set your own course, but you can't make them do those things, and you can't mandate the time in which they get there, because you might be more ready to reestablish a new relationship before they are.

What Not to Do When Your Mentor Struggles With the New Dynamics

[00:22:09] Okay, so quick, what not to do.

Don't Gossip (Or Even Vent To Others In The Firm)

The obvious is don't gossip. Although it's tempting to vent to colleagues, don't do it, because that is often seen as gossip. And let me tell you, you probably already know this, but it's really easy to forget when we're in the midst of emotion. Law firms are small worlds. What you say can get back to them, and when it does, it's often very distorted.

You want to protect your reputation. You want to protect your integrity, even when it's hard. And frankly, you want to protect the ability to build a better relationship with them in the future. If you gossip, that's probably going to be cut off forever. So if you do need to talk, be selective. Only confide in people you deeply trust. And even then, be thoughtful about how you frame it. Stick to facts, not feelings. Give your former mentor the benefit of the doubt inside of these conversations.

So your approach might be, I want to ensure they're okay, and I want to preserve our friendship.This is only if you talk to people within the firm. Obviously, you need to have people outside of the firm to talk to most realistically, most honestly.

Don't Apologize

[00:23:20] The second thing, and this one is hard for a lot of women, I've noticed attorneys don't assume you did something wrong and apologize. So if you haven't done anything wrong, you need to not act as you have.

If you apologize and go that route, it signals weakness, and it can reinforce a power dynamic that you don't want want to exist any longer or into the future. You're now peers, you're now colleagues. Act like it.

Don't Immediately Try to "Fix" the Relationship

[00:23:48] The third thing, and this is really hard for all of us, don't push to repair it before they're ready. So you cannot force somebody else to process their feelings on your timeline. You might get there before they do. And repeated attempts to talk it out or clear the air can feel like pressure to them and may push them further away.

It also might get you into a more heated, emotion-driven conversation that you could regret later. So give them space. Let time do some of the work for you.

[00:24:22] Now, this doesn't mean that you can't ever bring it up. I think initially when you realize something's up, if you have the kind of relationship where you feel comfortable bringing it up, you probably should once and get it into the open in a nice professional manner. Really from concern as their mentee and friend, and let them know you still see them as a valuable mentor and want to continue that relationship. But at that point, once you've had that initial conversation, you've got to leave it at that and let time take its course.

Don't Stoop to A Lower Level (Even If They Do)

[00:24:55] The other one is pretty obvious, but it's sometimes hard to remember when we're in the midst of emotion. So this is why the work outside of work and using the right tools is really important.

Do not take the bait. If they're being passive-aggressive or making snide comments, do not engage. Don't respond emotionally. That gives them power and can escalate the situation. Stay professional and calm. Their behavior says something about them, not you. But also remember it says something about how they're handling the situation, not necessarily as them, as people.

As I said earlier: With my mentor, had I not gotten into that one emotional conversation (and I really regretted it later, although what I said was honest, although it was in some ways valid), it probably wasn't the best thing to do if I wanted to preserve the long term relationship. And had I just held my tongue, been a little more calm, processed through my emotions elsewhere, I think our relationship would have come back and probably better so. And I missed that opportunity. So don't do that to yourself.

Don't Shring Yourself

[00:25:58] On the other hand, don't shrink. So sometimes it's natural, and this is especially again for women, to want to make yourself smaller to ease the tension. And this is especially the case if you're in meetings.

So after I had that issue happen and everything came out in the open with the partner that was my mentor, for the next couple of partner meetings (we used to have those once a month), I wasn't fully myself. I didn't speak up as much. I tried to just make myself quieter.

[00:26:26] That's not the right thing to do either. You earned your seat. Own it. You're trying to build your brand, and brand building isn't probably what you think it is. It's about what others say about you. And it starts from within the firm. And there are going to be plenty of partners in your own law firm, in your own office, who don't know you that well. They only know you as that associate that worked for so and so or this team or these people.

This is your time to really get out there and let them know who you are as a person. Not just that you're a good lawyer, but your style of lawyering, your personality. This is your time to forge new relationships for cross selling and collaboration.

And so you don't want to shrink yourself in these types of meetings. Don't do that.

Don't Assume This Is Permanent

And also don't assume that this is permanent. Because again, a lot of people just need time to adjust. The relationship can come back in a different form. So don't assume it's over.

[00:27:24] This way you don't burn bridges and you don't close that door forever like I unfortunately did. Now, yes, hold your boundaries, but also do it in a professional manner that leaves room for future repair.

Don't Overfocus On This Change (Letting It Derail You)

[00:27:36] And finally, don't let it derail you. Okay? You have a book to build. You have a reputation to establish. You have a leadership presence to develop. The best response to the situation is to keep moving forward. And you do that by not allowing the pain of this to become your focus. Then it will derail you. Don't let it be your focus.

[00:28:03] All right, let's wrap it up. So yes, partnership changes everything, including relationships you thought were solid. The people who championed you on the way up might not know how to relate to you once you arrive. This is not your fault. Do not take it on as though it's your fault. But it also doesn't mean that they are bad people. It means they're having a tough time handling change.

Your job now is to give them that space and time and to start building your career forward, with or without them. How you handle this moment says a lot about the partner you're becoming.

Make sure you are doing it in a way that is thoughtful, intentional and strategic. As always.

All right, that's it for this week. Bye for now.