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Episode 185: Should Lawyers Stick To Legal & Business Topics On LinkedIn?

by Heather Moulder | Life & Law Podcast

What should lawyers talk about on LinkedIn? Should you stick only to legal and relevant business topics? Is there a time and place to share more personal things (and how do you do that while keeping things professional)? What about topics that might not be popular (such as political and/or religious topics)?

Join me and fellow business coach Jamie Sternberg for a lively discussion on what to talk about (and what you might want to stay away from) on LinkedIn.

NOTE: Jamie and I don’t agree on everything. Which is why I wanted her on the show to chat about this – because it’s a place where you will often get disagreement.

About Jamie Sternberg

Jamie is an attorney who practiced at top law firms for almost 20 years to protect the trademarks and copyrighted material of entrepreneurs, multinational corporations, and those in between. For most of her career, she did what most lawyers do – focusing primarily on generating billable hours rather than building a book of business.

But then her priorities shifted. After creating a plan that aligned with her strengths, goals, schedule, and ideal clients, she was able to increase firm revenue 35% year-over-year, engage more than 150 new clients, expand the firm’s international practice by more than half a million dollars, and grow her visibility on LinkedIn by 800%.

Now Jamie coaches and consults with attorneys so they can have the same kind of success.

As the founder of Drumlin Strategies, LLC, she helps law firm owners, partners, counsel, and associates develop customized and sustainable business development plans that increase revenue and visibility.

Where To Connect with Jamie:

Episode Transcript

Welcome back everybody to the Life & Law podcast. This is your host, Heather Moulder. Today we have guest Jamie Sternberg, who is an attorney who practiced at top law firms for almost 20 years to protect the trademarks and copyrighted material of entrepreneurs, multinational corporations, and everybody in between. For most of her career, she did what most of us lawyers do. She focused primarily on generating billable hours rather than building a book of business.

But then, luckily for her, her priorities shifted. After creating a plan that aligned to her strengths, goals, schedule and ideal clients, she was able to increase firm revenues 35% year over year, engage more than 150 new clients, expand the firm’s international practice by more than half a million dollars, and grow her visibility on LinkedIn by 800%.

Now Jamie coaches and consults with attorneys so that they can have the same kind of success. As the founder of Drumlin Strategies, LLC, she helps law firm owners, partners, counsel and associates develop customized and sustainable business development plans that increase revenue and visibility. Welcome, Jamie.

[00:02:13] Jamie: Thank you so much for having me, Heather. I’m happy to be here.

[00:02:16] Heather: We are very aligned in many ways.

We see each other on LinkedIn all the time. And I love that your story includes, you know, shifting priorities that helped you to align to your strengths, goals, schedule and ideal clients. Because that’s very similar to how I did things and what I also teach my clients.

So I’m really excited to have you on today to talk a little bit about that, but then get into a much deeper conversation because I don’t know about you. I’m guessing you do, but you tell me. I find that a lot of lawyers are scared to death to give any type of an opinion, to speak up and out. They know they want to utilize LinkedIn or some social media platform and yet they’re terrified of what to actually say.

[00:03:06] Jamie: Yes, that’s something I work on a lot with my clients. And I’m happy to say that most of them do get over that and we, we find a way to make them feel comfortable, to allow them to feel comfortable posting on LinkedIn, for example.

How Jamie Went From Full-Time Law Practice to Business Coach to Lawyers

[00:03:23] Heather: Yes. And so, and I have the same thing and I unfortunately everybody out there, some of this getting over it involves just doing it. But before we get into the topic of the day, which is really going to be a conversation around branding and the types of things to post about and not always keeping it legal and business oriented. And, and we’re going to even dive a little deeper into that. So stick with us. But I’d love to get a little bit into your story. So what made you make the decision to leave law behind and do this work?

[00:04:04] Jamie: Yeah, well, I launched my coaching business.

So that was back in January of 24. And I, in the last few years of my practice I really leaned into the part of my practice and I think business development is a part of law firm attorneys practices because I mean, you know, it’s something I had to balance my billable hours with. During a work day I kind of really leaned into that and it all started with me realizing that business coaches or business development coaches existed, which I didn’t know about until like almost more than 14 years into my practice.

[00:04:52] And when I had, I had shifted to, I was at 100 attorney intellectual property firm and I shifted to a 10 attorney firm in 2019.

I had to, I had to develop a portion of my practice. So some clients came with me from the previous firm, but I had to kind of learn how to do it for myself. Where like previously it was just developing business from existing law firm clients by, you know, being responsive and giving them good customer service.

And networking internally and also through the International Trademark association organization. I did a lot of networking through that. But I was in Hartford, Connecticut, going into work every day for nine years and not getting out into the local community. Like just because the intellectual property practice is so national and international.

I just wasn’t getting out into the community. So I just, I just wasn’t doing anything directly. So the coach, I had two coaches in 2021. One was a business coach and a sales coach. Neither of them were coaches for attorneys, which honestly I thought was great because I just needed to kind of like learn what to do and learn how to close clients.

Which is why I ended up working with the sales coach who has now been with me since 2020 on and off, helped me get my current business off the ground. And I started. They both push me into using LinkedIn more and I was very skeptical about that. And now they come to me asking for advice on LinkedIn.

[00:06:47] Heather: Okay, that’s hilarious because I have a sales coach that I’ve used as well who’s kind of the same thing. Like she’s an expert at sales in general and online marketing. But it’s funny, the online marketing world hadn’t really been using LinkedIn until very recently. You started to see a lot of those people shift into LinkedIn.

And she still comes to me because I’ve been on LinkedIn longer than her to ask questions.

[00:07:13] Jamie: Right, exactly. Like in terms of the content, my sales coach, like she for sure gets the content and helps coach me on that part to make it more sales focused. Right.

But in terms of like algorithm and you know, other things like that.

[00:07:33] Heather: Yeah, well, and just so for anybody out there, because of the work we do, a lot of our posts are structured in a way that’s very psychology based to attract the right types of people to us so that they can learn about us, get to know us, and then eventually, hire us. So, there’s a lot of psychology that goes into it, in all honesty, that we can then utilize and help our clients with.

Because we learn a lot. But I would say there’s, it’s a little different because we’re more B2C, you know, we’re individuals. Even if it’s a firm owner, it’s usually because that firm owner is really thinking of their business initially. That’s what I found at least, which is a little different than how lawyers market. And we thankfully, having practiced for so long, understand how lawyers market and how exactly what we’ve learned in the online world and shift it into how to make it work for lawyers.

[00:08:44] Jamie: Right.

[00:08:45] Heather: So you’re full time, not practicing anymore, you’re now full time coaching, is that correct?

[00:08:50] Jamie: I am full time coaching and I’m of counsel with a trademark firm as well.

Heather: So you still practice?

Jamie: Yeah, a little bit. Keeping my, my, my toe in.

[00:09:03] Heather: Do you see yourself getting out completely at some point?

[00:09:08] Jamie: I don’t know. We’ll see.

[00:09:10] Heather: Okay. It’ll be interesting to see. I remember my husband, when I decided to leave, I left completely. I was like, I’m done. I know I don’t want to practice anymore. This is what I want to do. And I didn’t actually have a clear plan at that time, so I needed to just go explore and figure that out for myself. But for like the first three years, he’d ask, do you ever think you might go back?

[00:09:32] Jamie: No, I think it’s, it’s really complementary to what I’m doing because a lot of my clients are trademark copyright and patent attorneys and other, you know, privacy and you know, intellectual property based attorneys. Just because that was the network that I had built right throughout my career, including on LinkedIn. So they’re seeing my, those people are seeing my posts. I’m still going to the major trademark conferences so that I can connect with them.

And I, and I work with clients all over the world because as I said, this practice is very international. So I’ve had, I have coaching clients, you know, from Australia, from Argentina, someone who has immigrated here from the Ukraine and is building a practice here. So I really love that I can work with clients all over the world. But I really love that I can work with the US IP attorneys who used to be considered competition, right?

[00:10:39] Heather: Yes.

[00:10:40] Jamie: I really love that aspect of the, of the practice, of my coaching practice now. And you really learn like no one’s actually competition. No, we are all trademark attorneys, all the U.S. trademark attorneys, we, they all know how to file a trademark application, right? But everyone has a different target audience. They work at a different size firm, they have a different specialty. Like some people do privacy, some people do copyright, some people hate doing copyright. But like ultimately everyone kind of has their lane and it’s, yes, there’s some overlap, but ultimately, you know, everyone’s kind of doing their own thing.

[00:11:24] Heather: I would argue that even if you’re doing almost the exact same thing, everybody has their own style or approach that they bring to the table. Their own personality.

That’s their unique selling proposition – their style, their approach, their personality, how that all comes together. Because nobody relates to others the same way as you do. No one. And that means that there are people out there who are going to be much more attracted to you and there are going to be people out there who are going to be more repelled by you. And that’s okay. Because there’s enough out there to go around.

Right?

[00:12:05] Jamie: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, and that’s. I think, you know, something that we’re going to be talking about as part of this conversation is you’re going to attract the people who are most aligned with your style and your, you know, your specialty and what you. The value, specific value that you bring to the table. So, I mean, if someone doesn’t work out for you as a coaching client, as a trademark attorney, you know, they’re a better fit for someone else, and that’s okay.

Tips for Becoming More Active On LinkedIn

[00:12:32] Heather: Yeah, let’s get into that a little bit. Because so I find for my lawyer clients who really want to get active, Usually it’s on LinkedIn. If it’s social media, it’s LinkedIn.

They’re incredibly afraid to put anything out there that isn’t the standard bulletin notification. Like the most dry, boring, no opinion, not showcasing their approach. And it is, it’s like pulling teeth initially to get them out of their head and get them into that space of think of your perfect client, think of somebody who needs to hear this and speak to them like you would on the phone. Right. Give your opinion, give your two cents, give your approach. And it’s just so hard for them to do that initially. So what are your tips for kind of overcoming that and getting out there and doing more of that?

Tip #1: Surf the feed.

[00:13:28] Jamie: Right. So just really start posting, you know. Well, first of all, I tell.

No, it’s a process. Right. So we start out with my clients, like, okay, look at the, like just surf the feed for a few minutes a day and just see what people are talking about.

[00:13:47] Heather: Yep.

Tip #2: Follow Others In Your Industry

[00:13:48] Jamie: Start following other people in your industry and see what they’re talking about. Yep.

Tip #3: Start Commenting

Then, you know, after a week or two, start commenting on other people’s posts.

So you’re just, you’re starting to get out there, but it’s not like too much obligation or commitments and they have to be substantive comments. Right.

[00:14:10] Heather: That can’t be. Oh, great job. I agree completely.

[00:14:14] Jamie: Yeah. Because if you’re not posting then, and you’re only commenting, then you need to, like, be going the extra mile. Right. So start getting comfortable doing that.

Tip #4: Post What Feels Easy

And once you have a comfort level with that, you have a comfort level with the platform the first post can be on can be the dry posts.

Just to start getting out there and getting in the habit and getting comfortable with how everything works and obviously building your own comfort level with posting and, you know, posting about cases.

Tip #5: Set Up Google Keyword Alerts

I tell my clients to set up Google alerts with keywords like when I was practicing full time as a trademark attorney. I literally had Googler for trademarks and like likelihood of confusion, which is the standard of an infringement claim.

And that would come, pull back, I’d get an email every day and that would come back with, you know, what people are talking about, but also like being, you know, being subscribed to your industry newsletters like IP Law360 for example, and things like that. So you have, you have topic ideas right there.

[00:15:22] Heather: Yes.

Tip #6: Talk About What Is Familiar (Speaking To Your Target Audience)

[00:15:24] Jamie: And then you could, the first few posts could be literally something you are so familiar with. So for example, if you’re a trademark attorney, do a post on like what’s the difference between a TM SM and RNA circle? Like what is the difference between copyright, patent and trademark law?

You can do the like legal 101 posts just for things that you are so familiar with to just get comfortable getting out there writing and educating people.

And then you, then you can start thinking about who is my target audience? Because if your target audience are in-house attorneys who are practicing in your, you know what your, the services that you’re offering as an outside counsel, then obviously you’re going to have to do more like legal 201 type posts, right? 301 to kind of get their attention. So like these initial posts are just to kind of dip your toe in the water and start getting out there and feeling comfortable.

Heather’s Bonus Tip: Write About What You Speak (or Would Speak) About

[00:16:29] Heather: I like to tell my clients, like just start with, yeah, start with where you are. Also when it comes to the educational, so there’s the different types, right, that’s educational, but it’s also establishing with people like who are you? What do you do? Very clearly. So they are great posts to start with.

And I have found with some of my clients and I find this really psychologically interesting, if I say, well, what would you want to speak about?

They can easily come up with a topic or numerous ones. I’m like, okay, so why don’t you just translate that into your LinkedIn, right? This is obviously a number of topics and instead of a whole speech, you think of the, the what’s the one slide in that speech and start there. And that sometimes breaks through that barrier for them about what do I talk about?

And I love that you mentioned, okay, so you start with the educational stuff that you feel really comfortable with. It starts to create a brand. You start to get comfortable with it. You start to get into the rhythm of posting.

But if you have these alerts that showcase cases, that’s an easy way for me to get out there and give an opinion that doesn’t feel like such an opinion because you get to break it down and say, okay, what does this really mean? Who is this speaking to? Who needs to be aware and why? And it’s a very simple give-your-take post. But it doesn’t feel too like, too much like, oh, is somebody going to disagree with me on this? And it allows you to start going there.

Why Disagreement Is Okay

[00:18:01] Jamie: Right, exactly. And getting comfortable with the fact that it’s actually great if someone disagrees with you because then you are initiating a discussion and debate on your post, which makes it more interesting. So it’s okay. And also being okay with the fact that like not everyone knows everything. So it’s like the person who’s commenting on your posts may think about things in a different way than you do. And that doesn’t make what you’re saying wrong and it doesn’t make what they’re saying wrong.

So. But yeah, it’s just like the getting comfortable with that and being okay with that. And then of course, like if you see something in the news that’s not, you know, you’re not, you don’t represent or are in conflict with any of the parties, you can talk about like how this case may relate to something you have done. You can talk about how you think it’s going to end up.

How the parties may have, one of the parties may have done something better or differently to get a better outcome. So you can, you can start giving your perspective on things without really like, I don’t know, I mean, sort of nailing yourself into something that might affect one of your clients cases in the future.

[00:19:27] Heather: Right, right. I mean, I think the more you start to do this, the easier it gets. Number one, you get more and more comfortable with it. And then also you get better at reading the tea leaves and understanding, you know what, firm wise or client wise, this is something I might not want to say. I can speak to this aspect of it.

And then you can even say, I’m not going to talk about this because I really don’t know where it’s going. And there’s so many different issues. Like you could still address that elephant in the room, but just in a way that is politically correct for your firm and firm clients. There’s still a way to act.

[00:20:07] Jamie: Yes, yes. You can say this really like a monumental case that came down that I wanted to share and I’m not going to provide an opinion on it because it could impact, you know, it could impact my practice. So. Yes, addressing, addressing that right in the room. And then if people want to talk about it in the comments, great.

A Unique Way to Increase Engagement (Without Providing An Opinion of Your Own)

[00:20:29] Heather: Oh, I would even. Yeah, I would love that. And that’s a great post. Say, look, I’m not going to talk about this for the following reasons. For now, let’s see where this goes. But I would love to know your thoughts.

What do you think this means and where do you think it’s going to go? By the way, people will comment on that. And when people start commenting and giving their thoughts, then you can respond to them. Oh, I hadn’t thought about it that way. Or yeah, that I could see it maybe going. Right. And then it. That’s engagement, y’all. And it, it goes somewhere and more people notice it. And you haven’t even provided your opinion.

[00:21:05] Jamie: Right. And that’s where the magic happens because you’re getting engagement, you’re getting visibility and your posts getting a boost because people are commenting on it. I think it’s interesting.

Don’t Not Post Because Someone Else Already Has (Here’s Why) – Letting Go of Scarcity Mindset

That actually brings up another topic. So say this really significant case. There’s a decision and a significant case, or there was a case involving a celebrity, or it’s all over in the news, whatever. And you see other people in your industry posting about it.

That does not mean you shouldn’t. You can’t also post about it just because someone beat you to it. Right?

[00:21:40] Heather: Yes.

[00:21:41] Jamie: Because again, this goes back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago. Everyone has a different perspective on things. So you’re going to talk about it and write about it in a way that is aligned with your style and your perspective.

And also keep in mind, everybody has different audiences on LinkedIn. So you are talking to your audience, that person over there. You guys may have overlapping audiences, but that doesn’t matter. Ultimately, no one has the same audience. And the other cool thing is, is that people can see the two different perspectives.

[00:22:17] Heather: Yes.

[00:22:18] Jamie: And can even like talk about both posts. On the other post, tag. I mean, it just, you, you’re helping to boost your colleagues, which aligns with an abundance mindset. Because again, ultimately, yes, everyone’s competitors, but everyone has their own lane. Right.

So it’s really like all around helping people.

[00:22:41] Heather: Absolutely. I mean, you could even. And I think you’re saying this, but I want to make it clear. You can tag people and say, hey, so and so had this amazing post that went into this and I think it was great because of. And I also believe – then you add your own flavor. And then you can provide the link to their Post down in the comments so people can go find it if they want to and see the two. And so you’re boosting them, but you’re not doing it at your expense, y’all.

Like, we’ve gotta stop thinking about this as though we’re competing directly. That person has a different style, take, approach than you do. You’re showcasing the differentiation, which is incredibly compelling. It makes people more interested. And then again, people who are more likely to really want your way of doing are gonna be more prone to follow you, keep up with you, and one day potentially hire you as opposed to the other person. So it’s all good.

And then also, you don’t come across as the typical, you know, that lawyer who is trying to, like, create his own fiefdom at the, you know, detriment of everybody else, which is unfortunately, a lot of lawyers have done that. And so we have this bad rap and that’s not a good thing. Clients will see you so much better this way.

[00:24:00] Jamie: Yes, exactly. And again, I mean, even I’ll mention a name like Jay Harrington on LinkedIn today. Had an amazing post about having an abundance mindset.

And I did not, I did not open my eyes to that really, until like 15 years into practice. Like, I was operating out of a scarcity mindset. Seeing everybody, everyone is competition. Every other person posting about trademarks on LinkedIn is competition, you know, and I just got away from that. I don’t remember what the trigger was, but getting away from that is really what helped open things up for me in terms of business development. It really did.

And reading the book Give or Take by Adam Grant was also eye opening for me because that is, he uses like statistics and surveys and interviews to prove that having this abundance mindset and being a giver ultimately leads to more success in business.

Sharing Personal Stories and Details On LinkedIn

[00:25:02] Heather: So, I want to move into.

So this one is going to be even harder, I think, for a lot of lawyers to kind of digest. But should lawyers just stick with the legal and business side or do you also recommend they go into other things? Something more personal, things that might be considered political, you know, like, what about other topics, especially on LinkedIn?

Sharing Personal Stories With A Professional/Work Purpose

[00:25:31] Jamie: So I think the magic is because you’re on a business platform, I think the magic is in doing a professionally styled post, but also getting vulnerable and showing your human side and authenticity. So talking about a personal story that happened to you over the weekend or happened to you with your kids or whatever, talks about your interests, your hobbies, the books you’re reading, and relates it back to your Practice.

So it kind of makes sense for people. And it makes sense for. Because people are coming into, they’re on LinkedIn, so they have this mindset of like, I’m on a professional platform. I’m not expecting to see posts like Facebook. So that, that, that is the magic.

However, you know, this past week I did a completely unrelated post talking about how, you know, my mom’s last six weeks of life over the Thanksgiving week. And I did not relate that at all to my legal or coaching practice. So I think that post like that are definitely as important to a LinkedIn strategy as the per. The completely educational professional type posts. Because ultimately people are hiring you for who you are as a person.

[00:26:54] Heather: Yes.

[00:26:54] Jamie: They want to work with people they like. And so you’re. By showing a little vulnerability and humanity, you’re building the know, like and trust factor. And so when you get to the sales process, there, that is the sales process.

There is no sales process because people feel like they already know you. So when they send you an email or call you to hire you, they already feel like they know you.

[00:27:18] Heather: And that’s the best part, I think, of putting that other stuff out there is they get to know you as a person, which again, attracts better fit clients and repels people who are not with you. Like, they just don’t sync up with what you believe and, and who you are. And that’s absolutely okay, I would say.

[00:27:40] There’s two different tiers here that I see that you’re talking about. So the first one is utilizing stories within your personal, even professional life that don’t relate specifically to a legal issue, yet do relate somehow to the practice of, or to a lesson/professional type issues that your people deal with.

So, for example, I had a host, gosh, it was a year or more probably about a year ago now. So most people who listen to this podcast probably know by now that I have a freshman in college. And so last year we went through the insane process of, you know, picking schools and interviews and applications and all of that. And it kind of got me rethinking this whole definition of success.

And so I had a post, a LinkedIn post. It was actually one of my most popular posts to date around utilizing that story and rethinking what is actual success and what are we measuring here and why and how that relates back to my perfect clients. And how I help them figure that out as we’re going through this process, you know, of building or practice. And so that’s an example, I think, of that first tier where it kind of relates right back to what they care about immediately.

But then there’s the second one. And the second one is a little scarier, I think because it’s more personal. It might have more personal values and opinions in there.

That, that is where I think a lot of people are like, oh no, I couldn’t do that.

[00:29:21] Jamie: Right, right.

[00:29:23] Heather: What would you say?

Sharing Opinions & Values-Driven Ideas

[00:29:24] Jamie: I mean, yeah, well, but I literally encounter this with probably all of my coaching clients. Right. And they, and they all get over it. Right. We, we work through it, going through that sort of step by step process that I talked about earlier of like, you know, dipping their toe in, starting with the educational post, you know, talking about cases that are in the news and then seeing what other people are doing, like just getting, making sure you’re on the platform every day, just seeing how other people are talking about things and doing.

And once you’re in it, you kind of feel, and you’re already posting, feel more comfortable doing things like that. And if you’re talking, we dig into like what do you like, talk? What, what lights you up? What are you passionate about? What are your hobbies? Like, what books are you reading? Like, because people can, you can always talk about what you’re passionate about and that is not necessarily getting vulnerable, but it’s showing people who you are.

So along with the trademark type posts that I was doing when I was practicing full time, I was also talking about the books that I was reading. Right.

So that was one way that I opened a window into who I am and what I’m interested in outside of my trademark practice.

[00:30:48] Heather: What are your opinions on sharing or posting upon occasion on things you are really passionate about that would come under the political realm. So, for example, I have seen a lot more posts and I think very well done from Jewish lawyers on what has been going on in Israel and with Hamas the last year.

I’ve also seen a lot of people completely stay away from it. Who I would have, I’m a little surprised by. Right. Because I think people are afraid to post on things like that. So what is your thinking around A, should you and B, if you decide, yes, this is important enough how to go about posting on these types of issues.

[00:31:40] Jamie: Okay. Yes. So I had, when I was part of a law firm, working full time as a, as a, you know, a counsel and a partner and giving me and giving advice to the associates and other partners in terms of like what to be talking about on LinkedIn it was like, let just stay away from politics because you are part of a firm, so you don’t want to impact.

You have to think about your colleagues at the firm, right? And their clients. So they’re seeing, you know, their clients see your post, your clients, your post. So you can say to yourself, well, I don’t care if I turn off one of my clients, right?

But if I’m turning off, you know, one of my partner’s clients by doing this, that can be an issue. So I think if you’re at a firm, you need to be careful about posting political things and just kind of posting on the topics we were just talking about.

If you are a law firm owner or, you know, a sole practitioner or, you know, there’s a couple of you and you can get aligned on these things, I think, you know, go for it, right? Like it’s your practice, find you, you can do what you want. You have the freedom to do what you want. Now it’s like I have my own business, I’m of counsel with a firm and they, they know, you know, they know what I’m all about on LinkedIn, right?

So I have the luxury to post what I want. Do I still want to do that?

I measured by, I keep it measured. Because whatever I’m doing on LinkedIn, I want to be an example for my coaching clients.

And so if I’m telling them to stay away from controversial issues for whatever reason that’s specific to their practice, then I don’t necessarily want to be doing things that are not aligned with that. However, I am a Jewish attorney and, and I kept, I kept quiet about what was going on in the Middle East. So I am very passionate, I have a very passionate view about it, which I share on Instagram and Facebook. And so if you are in a situation where you can’t, or you don’t feel comfortable or you can’t post about controversial issues on LinkedIn as a professional platform.

You know, there’s always Facebook and Instagram, right? If you don’t, if you were just connected with friends and family, right?

So that’s where I was keeping it to.

However, I saw a presentation by this person called Elon Levy and he was like the spokesperson for the state of Israel and now works for like, I think some kind of PR company. They advocate on behalf of Israel and he’s talking about like how Jewish people need to get their voices out there and, and be. Speak to their audiences and be an advocate because we need more voices out there. That inspired me.

I’m at the point where it’s like my whole thing is like you’re the clients who are aligned to you, who are engaged by the content that you’re putting out, are going to be the right clients for you. And if other people feel differently, let them work with a different coach. You know, it’s so what? So I lose that money. It’ll. It’ll probably come in two times more in a different way.

A Different Take: Who Do You Want to Be?

[00:35:29] Heather: So I have another, a little bit different opinion having been in Big Law.

[00:35:33] Jamie: Yeah. Yep.

[00:35:35] Heather: I do not personally believe you should be quiet on certain things, regardless of who you work for.

And I think there’s a couple of things here. I think, number one, if you’re at a firm where they’re going to have trouble with you posting about the atrocities going on, maybe you’re at the wrong firm.

There are a lot of firms out there and not all of them have that. Some have hard policies against it, some are perfectly fine. Some, it depends. And so what I would say is first find out what’s what. I wouldn’t just post without talking through it internally. But you need to have a clear understanding of what the firm’s policies are. Because I was at a firm where you probably could post about those things and you, as long as you were not, you know, you had to be professional about it and a little. Been very thoughtful and intentional, not emotional, but you could. And I was very proud of that. Right. That that would be okay.

I think that. And, and it’s a hard thing to admit, but.

And it, it’s easier said than done and I get it to change firms, but if you are at a firm, if you’re passionate about something and they say, oh heck no, I don’t know that you’re aligned, values wise within your firm and that that spells bigger issues for the future. That’s number one. Number two.

[00:37:04] Jamie: Right.

[00:37:05] Heather: We have a societal problem, in my personal opinion, where nobody speaks to things other than behind the scenes and quietly. But that’s how evil takes over. And if we don’t speak up and say something, I think that’s a big problem societally. And we chose this legal profession for a reason. Most lawyers chose it for a reason. They wanna make an impact, they wanna make a difference. They wanna make the world a better place. It’s not making it better by not speaking out and up. And I think that there’s a lot of ignorance, frankly out there around facts and history. And it is way better if we’re at least all talking to one another about it. Because people are gonna form opinions and you’re not gonna know until it’s too late, and then in order to change opinions, so you might as well speak up. That’s my personal opinion. And I know it’s easier said than done, but, you know, I just, I don’t, I, I don’t. I personally believe that we can’t play it safe because playing it safe is actually very dangerous in the long term for our society and our own livelihood.

[00:38:19] Jamie: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I agree. I think that’s another good perspective on it. Right. If that’s the way you want to do it. If you are in a situation where you’re at a firm where posting controversial on controversial topics would be damaging to your position there, and you, you’re working, maybe you’re working on getting a job and you haven’t gotten one yet, maybe your family situation means that you can’t do that, then you can’t change firms, then you know, you’re gonna have to hold on.

[00:38:52] Heather: That I agree. You might need to hold on.

But as long as you’re working to change things, then once you do and you can. But also. Look, lawyers have an ability to move around in a way that a lot of people don’t.

We tend to think we can’t when we really can. And you, you have, like, don’t, don’t lie to yourself and say, oh, I can’t move, or I can’t anything. No. Like, figure out what do I actually believe? Who do I want to be? How do I ensure I can be that person?

If this is important to me.

[00:39:31] Jamie: Right.

[00:39:31] Heather: And it might mean a change, and it might mean we stay quiet for six months while we’re making that change. And that’s fine. I’m not saying you do it completely. Right. So. But I do think that if it’s important enough to you, you should be somewhere where you can speak out. And there’s also a way to do it that isn’t so agitating. I mean, there are lawyers out there who are at bigger firms who I see talking about this all the time. So obviously their firms fine with it. So there’s law firms that allow you to. They’re also very.

[00:40:00] Jamie: Or they’re just. Or. Or. Right. They work. They’re, you know, either very comfortable with business development, working with people like us, and have a big enough book of business where they can go out there and talk about these things because they know most likely the firm is not going to get Rid of them or they’ll have a pretty easy time moving to another firm.

[00:40:25] Heather: That is true. So I would, I would say if you really are aligned one way or another, right. And you want to speak out, first off, you got to figure out what your firm’s position is before you do. You always want to do that. Secondly, my two cents is start following the people who actually do it and pay attention to how they do it, because there is definitively an art to it.

[00:40:48] Jamie: Yes.

[00:40:49] Heather: Okay. You don’t just like word salad emotionally, like there’s, There’s a way to do it where it’s thoughtful and you aren’t really doing it in a way that should cause major ripple effects.

But also, I think you want to maybe, you know, get some mentorship, hire somebody to help you because they’re. They’re there. As I said, there’s an art to it. And then also think about, okay, if I don’t have the power, how can I get more power? Where could I go? How could I, you know, think through intentionally? This is really about your own career and who you want to be within your career and as a person.

[00:41:29] Jamie: Right, Right. Don’t.

[00:41:31] Heather: I would say do not stay somewhere that is going to require you to be somebody you’re really not and hide who you are. And it doesn’t necessarily mean. And when I say we are very mobile, we are. We have lots of opportunities out there. But that doesn’t mean you can jump, snap of a finger. It takes some time and intention. So I’m definitely not saying just go out there and, you know, say everything you want immediately. You need to be thoughtful and intentional about it. But I also believe that if it is important to you, make sure you’re somewhere where you can, but then also make sure you’re doing it in a way that is appropriate. One of my biggest pet peeves is we all make assumptions about what other people believe and why, and we’re all usually very wrong about that.

So you want to make sure you check that. Right. And that’s why I really. I think it’s good to start following people who not only do what you would like to be doing, but people who do it on a different side and you may not agree with so that you can gain more understanding and be more open to their perspective. Openness and understanding does not mean acceptance. It’s not the same thing. But it really does help for you if you are going to start posting about these things and talking about these things, to be much more thoughtful and intentional about it and do it in a way where it gathers more conversation as opposed to, on a proactive manner, as opposed to getting people fighting.

[00:43:05] Jamie: Right, right or right in the comments. Yeah, I agree. There’s a way to do it without trashing the other side because that is the first thing that, the first indication that where I will just unfollow someone. Right. It’s like I, I, I do like to see the other views and opinions and how the other side is thinking about things. But if you start trashing and, and, and, and being condescending in your views.

[00:43:39] Heather: Oh yeah.

[00:43:40] Jamie: Which is gonna look at your content.

[00:43:42] Heather: Sadly easy to do.

[00:43:44] Jamie: The people who have been writing about this situation, who I follow on LinkedIn, do it from such a compassionate and informative viewpoint where they’re just talking about these are the facts, you know, and I happen to be talking a lot about the facts about this one particular side. So clearly you know where my views lie. But, you know, I’m bringing it out into the open. I’m educating people, at least to the facts that like you are, you think are, you know, the right sources and the right facts. Right. Not everything’s correct, but they’re doing it in a way that’s, they’re educating people and that is important. And you are showing your political views right when you do that. Because it’s not like, it’s not like these people are talking about both sides. Right. They’re talking, they’re educating people about one side. Yes.

The other thing to think about though is like you could, if you’re at a firm where it’s challenging for you to do this again, like there’s other ways to do it. There’s Facebook, there’s Instagram, there’s getting out into your community that years. You can be writing emails to your, you know, congresspeople.

So you don’t necessarily have to be using LinkedIn as your forum for these views. You can still be getting out there being a lawyer, you know, doing your thing in other ways.

[00:45:21] Heather: And I agree with that. I think we often think that we have to do it everywhere. And perhaps you’re at a firm where you don’t, you know, you’re early in your career, you realize, I need to be here for the next two to three years. It’s not the worst place. But I can’t switch speak publicly on LinkedIn to these issues for the following reasons. Well, how else can I get out there and speak to these issues or help with these issues? Well, joining local groups, arg, you know, representing, maybe pro bono. There’s A lot of ways to do it, right, to get active and get out there and showcase who you are, include it in your resume so people will see it. And then when you become a little more politically powerful or you get the experience you need within this place and you can move, then you become. And you want to.

[00:46:12] Jamie: Right.

[00:46:13] Heather: Again, I preface this with who do you want to be? How do you want to show up? If it is important enough to you and it really is hurting you, then you’re probably in the wrong spot. But if there is a way to do what, what allows you to be you in a different way, that’s fine too.

[00:46:33] Jamie: Yeah. And I’m fully on board with being in alignment with who you are in terms of how you show up, because so then you attract the people who you’re supposed to, you are supposed to work with in terms of a colleague level or a client level.

So it’s just getting, being thoughtful about it and getting yourself in a position where you feel comfortable doing this, whether it’s getting more influence because you have the industry reputation or the book of business or you’re further along in your career or you’re at a, at a law firm that, or you own a law firm or you’re at a law firm that’s comfortable with this. But yeah, when I was just starting to get active on LinkedIn, there were posts that I made that I, you know, there was some discussion about internally. Right.

So, you know, it’s, you have to feel your way and be thoughtful about it. And some of these things I wasn’t as, maybe as thoughtful as I should have been. But don’t let that hold you back.

Make. It’s okay to make a mistake. You’re not going to get fired for making one mistake. So learn from it.

[00:47:47] Heather: Yes.

[00:47:48] Jamie: Just don’t, don’t let that stop you from getting out there.

[00:47:53] Heather: Agreed.

So I think this is a great wrapping up point. Thank you so much for this conversation.

I knew we probably wouldn’t be 100% in agreement, which I think is awesome because it gives people different perspectives on what to look for. Although I don’t think we’re that out of alignment with one another, in all honesty. But before I let you go, where can people find you, hook up with you, connect with you?

[00:48:19] Jamie: So I’m on LinkedIn under Jamie Sternberg. Drum with. If you go on my profile, you’ll see Drumlin Strategies. My website is drumlinstrategies.com and that’s D R U M L I N strategies.com.

[00:48:34] Heather: And I will have links in the show notes so that you can find Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:48:41] Jamie: Thank you so much for having me. Heather.

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